Wednesday, February 27, 2008

RE: [papercreters] New Mexico Pumice and Perlite

This is one of the best emails I've received in a long time. Thanks so much for all this information. Do you plan to visit these places soon? We could meet and go together. If not I think I'll call them and see if I can make an appointment for a little tour, or at least drive over and take a look. I've heard that it's visible from the highway therefore easy to find.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: sire@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 03:46:50 -0700
Subject: [papercreters] New Mexico Pumice and Perlite

Hi Judith,
 
I doubt that water would soak into blocks that are a foot above ground and painted with latex.
 
To answer your other questions, pumice is a unique material not found in most places, so you are very lucky to live to so close to a source of it.   Mixed with lime it has been used as an additive to concrete for thousands of years, especially used in Roman times.   The insulative value of lightweight concrete aggregates is much greater than the usual concrete gravel and sand aggregates.   The order of increasing insulation value would go something like pumice, perlite, and vermiculite.   Pumice and perlite are similar being essentially volcanic glass that has been expanded or hydrated.   Since the insulative values of these materials are not that different, cost becomes the predominant factor, so pumice and perlite being in your back yard so to speak would be the materials of choice.
 
Perlite is a form of volcanic glass, like pumice, that when heated expands to many times its size.   The water held in it gives it the characteristic white (or pearl=perlite) color.   This expansion process is not unlike how popcorn is made.
 
I live in Albuquerque.   I didn't realize this before looking into it, but there is a world-class perlite deposit in the No Agua Peaks area in Taos County very near you.   Someday I would like to go up there and poke around, ask questions, find out about the process of mining and expanding it.  New Mexico is the leading state in the production of perlite.
 
The No Agua resource near the Colorado Border is said to be the largest perlite deposit in the world. It hosts two of the State's largest mines, one owned by Harborlite (previous Celite and Johns Manville); the other by Dicaperl (a subsidiary of Grefco, previously General Refractories).   Smaller deposits are near Socorro and Grants.   All of the mines are open-pit, extracting by simple ripping and scraping; only a minor amount of drilling and blasting is required. Dicaperl's processing plant for its No Agua perlite is located on railhead in Antonito, Colorado, 25 miles north of the mine. It produces up to 200,000 short tons per year of sized crude perlite, over one-quarter of total U.S. output. Over 90% is shipped to expanders; 7% is expanded on-site.  The Harborlite mine is adjacent to Dicaperl's. Their ore is also trucked to Antonito for sizing and rail shipment. 
 
New Mexico is also second in the U.S. in pumice production. Six mining operations are known -- 2 each in Santa Fe, Rio Arriba and Sandoval counties.    Some local companies are
Copar Pumice Co. in Espanola, NM, CR Minerals Corp. in Santa Fe, NM; and Utility Block Co., Albuquerque.
 
Neal
   
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Thanks Neal. The last time I went to the pumice plant the guy pulled out a little chart listing and comparing the insulative value of each grade of pumice. It's on that info that I have based my "pumice adds to insulative value of papercrete" theory. I would never put a papercrete wall directly on the ground. I always argue for it being at least 8" above grade and ideally I believe it should be at least a foot. We have huge gully washer downpours here. I noticed after one particularly intense one the about 30% of my pumice pile had been washed away and the water had come up to almost a foot high on the back wall of the building. That wall just happened to have been built only about 4" above grade and got pretty wet. It did dry out quickly but I don't think it would have been very good for it to have gotten that wet if the finish plaster had already been in place. On the new project, a very small studio, I will use a rubble trench foundation with a concrete grade beam reinforced with #4 rebar. The first couple of courses of papercrete blocks will be painted liberally with latex paint then I think I will slip form the walls the rest of the way up. (may need some sort of barrier between the latex painted blocks and the poured slurry or would painting the top of them protect them against water soaking in?) I wonder how much it would cost to ship perlite. Do you live in Texas or NM? I'm in Abiquiu, NM, about 40 miles north of Santa Fe. Does perlite just come out of the ground as is or is it processed somehow? Interesting stuff.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: sire@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:34:24 +0000
Subject: RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Judith,
 
Generally from past messages latex paint has far more effectiveness if it is painted on or otherwise present in the outermost layer.
 
The post you are commenting on needs some clarification.   Papercrete requires no foundation?   That is a brand new assertion.   Overhang and drainage does not always keep water away from the wall base.
 
The insulative value is improved with aggregate?   Not if it is rocks, which aggregate usually means.   There is a world of difference between perlite and rocks.   Incidentally I can get a truckload of perlite shipped to anyone from Arizona if they would pay shipping.
 
"Purists insist lime is better"?   Better than what?   Are purists those people who study materials that have been used effectively for thousands of years but have gone out of fashion, and then point out that there are good reasons for them to be used again?
 
Neal
.




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[papercreters] New Mexico Pumice and Perlite

Hi Judith,
 
I doubt that water would soak into blocks that are a foot above ground and painted with latex.
 
To answer your other questions, pumice is a unique material not found in most places, so you are very lucky to live to so close to a source of it.   Mixed with lime it has been used as an additive to concrete for thousands of years, especially used in Roman times.   The insulative value of lightweight concrete aggregates is much greater than the usual concrete gravel and sand aggregates.   The order of increasing insulation value would go something like pumice, perlite, and vermiculite.   Pumice and perlite are similar being essentially volcanic glass that has been expanded or hydrated.   Since the insulative values of these materials are not that different, cost becomes the predominant factor, so pumice and perlite being in your back yard so to speak would be the materials of choice.
 
Perlite is a form of volcanic glass, like pumice, that when heated expands to many times its size.   The water held in it gives it the characteristic white (or pearl=perlite) color.   This expansion process is not unlike how popcorn is made.
 
I live in Albuquerque.   I didn't realize this before looking into it, but there is a world-class perlite deposit in the No Agua Peaks area in Taos County very near you.   Someday I would like to go up there and poke around, ask questions, find out about the process of mining and expanding it.  New Mexico is the leading state in the production of perlite.
 
The No Agua resource near the Colorado Border is said to be the largest perlite deposit in the world. It hosts two of the State's largest mines, one owned by Harborlite (previous Celite and Johns Manville); the other by Dicaperl (a subsidiary of Grefco, previously General Refractories).   Smaller deposits are near Socorro and Grants.   All of the mines are open-pit, extracting by simple ripping and scraping; only a minor amount of drilling and blasting is required. Dicaperl's processing plant for its No Agua perlite is located on railhead in Antonito, Colorado, 25 miles north of the mine. It produces up to 200,000 short tons per year of sized crude perlite, over one-quarter of total U.S. output. Over 90% is shipped to expanders; 7% is expanded on-site.  The Harborlite mine is adjacent to Dicaperl's. Their ore is also trucked to Antonito for sizing and rail shipment. 
 
New Mexico is also second in the U.S. in pumice production. Six mining operations are known -- 2 each in Santa Fe, Rio Arriba and Sandoval counties.    Some local companies are Copar Pumice Co. in Espanola, NM, CR Minerals Corp. in Santa Fe, NM; and Utility Block Co., Albuquerque.
 
Neal
   
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Thanks Neal. The last time I went to the pumice plant the guy pulled out a little chart listing and comparing the insulative value of each grade of pumice. It's on that info that I have based my "pumice adds to insulative value of papercrete" theory. I would never put a papercrete wall directly on the ground. I always argue for it being at least 8" above grade and ideally I believe it should be at least a foot. We have huge gully washer downpours here. I noticed after one particularly intense one the about 30% of my pumice pile had been washed away and the water had come up to almost a foot high on the back wall of the building. That wall just happened to have been built only about 4" above grade and got pretty wet. It did dry out quickly but I don't think it would have been very good for it to have gotten that wet if the finish plaster had already been in place. On the new project, a very small studio, I will use a rubble trench foundation with a concrete grade beam reinforced with #4 rebar. The first couple of courses of papercrete blocks will be painted liberally with latex paint then I think I will slip form the walls the rest of the way up. (may need some sort of barrier between the latex painted blocks and the poured slurry or would painting the top of them protect them against water soaking in?) I wonder how much it would cost to ship perlite. Do you live in Texas or NM? I'm in Abiquiu, NM, about 40 miles north of Santa Fe. Does perlite just come out of the ground as is or is it processed somehow? Interesting stuff.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: sire@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:34:24 +0000
Subject: RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Judith,
 
Generally from past messages latex paint has far more effectiveness if it is painted on or otherwise present in the outermost layer.
 
The post you are commenting on needs some clarification.   Papercrete requires no foundation?   That is a brand new assertion.   Overhang and drainage does not always keep water away from the wall base.
 
The insulative value is improved with aggregate?   Not if it is rocks, which aggregate usually means.   There is a world of difference between perlite and rocks.   Incidentally I can get a truckload of perlite shipped to anyone from Arizona if they would pay shipping.
 
"Purists insist lime is better"?   Better than what?   Are purists those people who study materials that have been used effectively for thousands of years but have gone out of fashion, and then point out that there are good reasons for them to be used again?
 
Neal
.

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Tuesday, February 26, 2008

[papercreters] Re: storm shelter

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "kd5lzj" <kd5lzj@...> wrote:
>
> whats your thoughts on making an underground storm shelter from
> papercrete?

My initial thought would be that it was not the best idea. I do
think it could be made to work, with the right aggregate,
reinforcement, and moisture barrier.

Others can chime in, but my biggest concern would be how water would
escape if it ever got in there.

Not addressing that issue, but for water barrier (to prevent it from
getting soaked with ground water), perhaps you could use one or more
of those vinyl outdoor billboards that you can get for free some
places. You would also need to make sure that the blocks were
completely dry before you used them, since best case they would only
have about 1/4 of their surface area to allow vapor to escape.

I would say that a small experiment would be to dig a hole large
enough to build a 4'x4'x4' model and monitor it for one of your
rainy / stormy seasons.

- Ernie


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[papercreters] Re: papercrete

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "kd5lzj" <kd5lzj@...> wrote:
>
> how many cubic yards/feet are in a batch of papercrete in the
> 60/20/20 formula?

??? As many as you have a container to hold?

I generally mix in either a small concrete mixer (1.25 cubic feet /
batch) or when I have it working my larger mortar mixer (~6 cubic
feet / batch). Some folks have tow mixers that mix alot more, some
folks mix in 5 gallon buckets.

Hope I answered your question or at least helped to clarify it.

- Ernie



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[papercreters] Re:Sculpture.

Hello malcolm & evreyone

I'm currently building sculptered benches made of old tires & papercrete stucco in a school with the children
basiclly it's a long bench (10 m') made of 2-4 tires placed one on each other (60 cm max).
as well, I'm building in Israel wich is much sunnier than scotland hehehe

the weak points are:
1. the sturctural strength is weak due to poor filling of the tires with anorganic garbge (by the children) and the wire mesh alone is not enough to give it extra strength. some steel rebar is needed.
2. my stucco mix (10 parts paper: 1 part portland) was a bit light on concrete but it holds light kicks and medium (up to ~30mm by now) rain well.
3. broken colourful tiles can't be sunk into the stucco but have to be glued to the stucco afterhand. any suggestions anyone :-? & what adhesive do you suggest using? I'm usin ceramic tile mortar wich is already starting to crumble due to rain.

I suggest using a mix use earth & more cement to create a tougher stucco.

The benefits are of course environmental (less use of fuel & resources-sand\gravel\cement)

good luck.
udi

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[papercreters] storm shelter

whats your thoughts on making an underground storm shelter from
papercrete?


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[papercreters] papercrete

how many cubic yards/feet are in a batch of papercrete in the 60/20/20
formula?


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Monday, February 25, 2008

[papercreters] Property changes with the addition of latex

Can anyone (Clyde?, Bob?, anyone?) speculate on the tensile strength property changes with the addition of latex?
 
ElfN
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[papercreters] Re: Water Resistance

Purists are those that dont entertain more than one point of view- For
instance if we were talking paper adobe then lime would be indicated
to help aggregate the clay - aggregate can have multiple meanings as
in I just used it in another- typically I mean something for the
cement to make a cement paste with - my sampl that Barry fuller tested
was one -third sand and yet it had the highest r- value (because the
sand grains still were not close enough to conduct through each other
, still it really was because I had fully expanded the paper-
papercrete generally will not need any extra foundation or footer due
to the fact that most walls are 10 inches or more and the material is
so lightweight that it does not need more surface to distribute the
load- what do you think concrete wont wick moisture ( it is the worst)
put down some polysheild if you are in wet country ,still mostly run
the water away- when you use pozzalan with the portland there really
is not much that can happen even if it stays damp - Yes I would like
some perlight E-mail at info@evesgarden.org Clyde- In
papercreters@yahoogroups.com, sire@... wrote:
>
> Judith,
>
> Generally from past messages latex paint has far more effectiveness
if it is painted on or otherwise present in the outermost layer.
>
> The post you are commenting on needs some clarification.
Papercrete requires no foundation? That is a brand new assertion.
Overhang and drainage does not always keep water away from the wall base.
>
> The insulative value is improved with aggregate? Not if it is
rocks, which aggregate usually means. There is a world of difference
between perlite and rocks. Incidentally I can get a truckload of
perlite shipped to anyone from Arizona if they would pay shipping.
>
> "Purists insist lime is better"? Better than what? Are purists
those people who study materials that have been used effectively for
thousands of years but have gone out of fashion, and then point out
that there are good reasons for them to be used again?
>
> Neal
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: JUDITH WILLIAMS <williams_judith@...>
> If I want to use papercrete blocks as your stemwall and you want
them to be water resistant you say to use latex paint. It just so
happens I was given many gallons of latex paint. Do you mean to add
the paint to the mix (in what ratio?) or to paint the blocks. I was
thinking of adding it and also painting the wall after it's set. Am I
nuts or what? Also I agree with you about the aggregate. I've been
using pumice fines and feel they are a great improvement over sand. I
understnd there is also a perlite plant not far from here. I'd love to
try that too. It's the light weight and insulative value that are my
favorite things about papercrete. Once you have your mixing method and
equipment, working with papercrete is a whole lot of fun.
>
> Sincerely, Judith
> Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.
>
> "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the
Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.
>
>
>
>
>
> To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> From: clyde@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:00:19 +0000
> Subject: [papercreters] Water Resistance
>
>
> This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help -
> where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives it
> up very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the excess
> lime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of the
> Portland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and carbon
> dioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the surface of
> the papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining Pozzalon in your
> mix , making the papercrete give up the water easier, when it does get
> wet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of insulating all the
> way to the ground. In fact papercrete generally requires no foundation
> at all, as it is monolithic and self supporting. Most important is to
> keep water away to start with (wide overhangs, drainage away from the
> base and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC PAINT)) Once I began
> using pozzalon I could no longer use Drylock masonry sealer, it reacts
> with lime and the pozzalon had already used it all up.
> There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO MUCH WATER TO
> START WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks should be dry
> before they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically with the
> addition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as proved by
> Barry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand got heavy
> so I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is hollow and
> insulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less footprint
> than moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting that
> lime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.
>



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RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Thanks Neal. The last time I went to the pumice plant the guy pulled out a little chart listing and comparing the insulative value of each grade of pumice. It's on that info that I have based my "pumice adds to insulative value of papercrete" theory. I would never put a papercrete wall directly on the ground. I always argue for it being at least 8" above grade and ideally I believe it should be at least a foot. We have huge gully washer downpours here. I noticed after one particularly intense one the about 30% of my pumice pile had been washed away and the water had come up to almost a foot high on the back wall of the building. That wall just happened to have been built only about 4" above grade and got pretty wet. It did dry out quickly but I don't think it would have been very good for it to have gotten that wet if the finish plaster had already been in place. On the new project, a very small studio, I will use a rubble trench foundation with a concrete grade beam reinforced with #4 rebar. The first couple of courses of papercrete blocks will be painted liberally with latex paint then I think I will slip form the walls the rest of the way up. (may need some sort of barrier between the latex painted blocks and the poured slurry or would painting the top of them protect them against water soaking in?) I wonder how much it would cost to ship perlite. Do you live in Texas or NM? I'm in Abiquiu, NM, about 40 miles north of Santa Fe. Does perlite just come out of the ground as is or is it processed somehow? Interesting stuff.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: sire@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:34:24 +0000
Subject: RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Judith,
 
Generally from past messages latex paint has far more effectiveness if it is painted on or otherwise present in the outermost layer.
 
The post you are commenting on needs some clarification.   Papercrete requires no foundation?   That is a brand new assertion.   Overhang and drainage does not always keep water away from the wall base.
 
The insulative value is improved with aggregate?   Not if it is rocks, which aggregate usually means.   There is a world of difference between perlite and rocks.   Incidentally I can get a truckload of perlite shipped to anyone from Arizona if they would pay shipping.
 
"Purists insist lime is better"?   Better than what?   Are purists those people who study materials that have been used effectively for thousands of years but have gone out of fashion, and then point out that there are good reasons for them to be used again?
 
Neal
 
 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: JUDITH WILLIAMS <williams_judith@hotmail.com>

If I want to use papercrete blocks as your stemwall and you want them to be water resistant you say to use latex paint. It just so happens I was given many gallons of latex paint. Do you mean to add the paint to the mix (in what ratio?) or to paint the blocks. I was thinking of adding it and also painting the wall after it's set. Am I nuts or what? Also I agree with you about the aggregate. I've been using pumice fines and feel they are a great improvement over sand. I understnd there is also a perlite plant not far from here. I'd love to try that too. It's the light weight and insulative value that are my favorite things about papercrete. Once you have your mixing method and equipment, working with papercrete is a whole lot of fun.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Profes sionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: clyde@evesgarden.org
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:00:19 +0000
Subject: [papercreters] Water Resistance

This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help -
where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives it
up very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the excess
lime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of the
Portland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and carbon
dioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the surface of
the papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining Pozzalon in your
mix , making the papercrete give up the water easier, when it does get
wet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of insulating all the
way to the ground. In fact papercrete generally requires no foundation
at all, as it is monolithic and self supporting. Most important is to
keep water away to start with (wide overhangs, drainage away from the
base and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC PAINT)) Once I began
using pozzalon I could no longer use Dr ylock masonry sealer, it reacts
with lime and the pozzalon had already used it all up.
There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO MUCH WATER TO
START WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks should be dry
before they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically with the
addition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as proved by
Barry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand got heavy
so I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is hollow and
insulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less footprint
than moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting that
lime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org




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[papercreters] Re: Water Resistance

Adding acrylic to bulk is not affordable, still it works good in a
skim coat to add elastic modulous - in my case I am working with
exsposed domes so I paint the outside with several coats of semigloss
to get the water to run off - if you have overhanges papercrete is
more forgiving--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, JUDITH WILLIAMS
<williams_judith@...> wrote:
>
>
> If I want to use papercrete blocks as your stemwall and you want
them to be water resistant you say to use latex paint. It just so
happens I was given many gallons of latex paint. Do you mean to add
the paint to the mix (in what ratio?) or to paint the blocks. I was
thinking of adding it and also painting the wall after it's set. Am I
nuts or what? Also I agree with you about the aggregate. I've been
using pumice fines and feel they are a great improvement over sand. I
understnd there is also a perlite plant not far from here. I'd love to
try that too. It's the light weight and insulative value that are my
favorite things about papercrete. Once you have your mixing method and
equipment, working with papercrete is a whole lot of fun.Sincerely,
Judith Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com."Never
be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark.
Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.
>
>
> To: papercreters@...: clyde@...: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:00:19
+0000Subject: [papercreters] Water Resistance
>
>
>
>
> This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help
-where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives
itup very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the
excesslime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of
thePortland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and
carbondioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the
surface ofthe papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining
Pozzalon in yourmix , making the papercrete give up the water easier,
when it does getwet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of
insulating all theway to the ground. In fact papercrete generally
requires no foundationat all, as it is monolithic and self supporting.
Most important is tokeep water away to start with (wide overhangs,
drainage away from thebase and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC
PAINT)) Once I beganusing pozzalon I could no longer use Drylock
masonry sealer, it reactswith lime and the pozzalon had already used
it all up.There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO
MUCH WATER TOSTART WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks
should be drybefore they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically
with theaddition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as
proved byBarry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand
got heavyso I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is
hollow andinsulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less
footprintthan moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting
thatlime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org


>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
> http://biggestloser.msn.com/
>



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RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

Judith,
 
Generally from past messages latex paint has far more effectiveness if it is painted on or otherwise present in the outermost layer.
 
The post you are commenting on needs some clarification.   Papercrete requires no foundation?   That is a brand new assertion.   Overhang and drainage does not always keep water away from the wall base.
 
The insulative value is improved with aggregate?   Not if it is rocks, which aggregate usually means.   There is a world of difference between perlite and rocks.   Incidentally I can get a truckload of perlite shipped to anyone from Arizona if they would pay shipping.
 
"Purists insist lime is better"?   Better than what?   Are purists those people who study materials that have been used effectively for thousands of years but have gone out of fashion, and then point out that there are good reasons for them to be used again?
 
Neal
 
 
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: JUDITH WILLIAMS <williams_judith@hotmail.com>

If I want to use papercrete blocks as your stemwall and you want them to be water resistant you say to use latex paint. It just so happens I was given many gallons of latex paint. Do you mean to add the paint to the mix (in what ratio?) or to paint the blocks. I was thinking of adding it and also painting the wall after it's set. Am I nuts or what? Also I agree with you about the aggregate. I've been using pumice fines and feel they are a great improvement over sand. I understnd there is also a perlite plant not far from here. I'd love to try that too. It's the light weight and insulative value that are my favorite things about papercrete. Once you have your mixing method and equipment, working with papercrete is a whole lot of fun.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Profes sionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: clyde@evesgarden.org
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:00:19 +0000
Subject: [papercreters] Water Resistance

This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help -
where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives it
up very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the excess
lime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of the
Portland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and carbon
dioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the surface of
the papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining Pozzalon in your
mix , making the papercrete give up the water easier, when it does get
wet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of insulating all the
way to the ground. In fact papercrete generally requires no foundation
at all, as it is monolithic and self supporting. Most important is to
keep water away to start with (wide overhangs, drainage away from the
base and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC PAINT)) Once I began
using pozzalon I could no longer use Dr ylock masonry sealer, it reacts
with lime and the pozzalon had already used it all up.
There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO MUCH WATER TO
START WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks should be dry
before they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically with the
addition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as proved by
Barry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand got heavy
so I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is hollow and
insulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less footprint
than moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting that
lime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org




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[papercreters] Re:Water Resistance

YES!-- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "TerryW" <blazingsaddles@...>
wrote:
>
> Clyde,
>
> You have some pretty large water features around Eve's Garden, what
are you using to build those large ponds? Papercrete?
>
> Terry
>



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RE: [papercreters] Water Resistance

If I want to use papercrete blocks as your stemwall and you want them to be water resistant you say to use latex paint. It just so happens I was given many gallons of latex paint. Do you mean to add the paint to the mix (in what ratio?) or to paint the blocks. I was thinking of adding it and also painting the wall after it's set. Am I nuts or what? Also I agree with you about the aggregate. I've been using pumice fines and feel they are a great improvement over sand. I understnd there is also a perlite plant not far from here. I'd love to try that too. It's the light weight and insulative value that are my favorite things about papercrete. Once you have your mixing method and equipment, working with papercrete is a whole lot of fun.

Sincerely, Judith
Visit my papercrete website at www.judith-l-williams.com.

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals, on the other hand, built the Titanic." Author unknown.



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: clyde@evesgarden.org
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:00:19 +0000
Subject: [papercreters] Water Resistance

This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help -
where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives it
up very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the excess
lime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of the
Portland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and carbon
dioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the surface of
the papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining Pozzalon in your
mix , making the papercrete give up the water easier, when it does get
wet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of insulating all the
way to the ground. In fact papercrete generally requires no foundation
at all, as it is monolithic and self supporting. Most important is to
keep water away to start with (wide overhangs, drainage away from the
base and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC PAINT)) Once I began
using pozzalon I could no longer use Drylock masonry sealer, it reacts
with lime and the pozzalon had already used it all up.
There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO MUCH WATER TO
START WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks should be dry
before they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically with the
addition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as proved by
Barry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand got heavy
so I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is hollow and
insulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less footprint
than moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting that
lime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org




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[papercreters] Re:Water Resistance

Clyde,
 
You have some pretty large water features around Eve's Garden,  what are you using to build those large ponds?  Papercrete?
 
Terry
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[papercreters] Sculpture.

Hi there,

I am currently working on a series of fairly large outdoor sculptures with a group of school
children. I had planned to use concrete on a plywood frame with wire mesh and expanding
foam for the bulk. Is this something i could use papercrete for or would i be better to stick to
sand as my agregate? If it were possible to use papercrete what would the benefits be? These
sculptures are going to have to withstand the harshest of Scottish winters and be pretty much
bomb proof given that they will be placed in a school playground.

Any help and advice would be great.

Malcolm


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Sunday, February 24, 2008

[papercreters] papercrete outdoor furniture

Hi all,
So glad to be part of this group!

My question to you all is this: has anybody dabbled in papercrete
outdoor furniture? I am looking at all possibilities, including
papercrete and linseed oil, paper and latex paint, etc. I would like
to start creating lighter weight benches and tables that can withstand
the elements. I used to work in hypertufa, but am now looking to
expand my creativity and "go green" by using junk mail and throwaways
to create outdoor sculptures and furniture. I am pretty much open to
anything. Anybody have any ideas that they would like to share? One
thing I have found is that by adding borax to the papercrete mix it
gives a great cohesiveness, almost like a clay.
Any other ideas out there or anybody try anything like this? Recipes?

Thanks!
Heather


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[papercreters] Water Resistance

This is a subject that comes up regularly - Maybe this will help -
where the paper in papercrete does take on moisture, it also gives it
up very fast . The culprit for holding on to that water is the excess
lime (calcium carbonate) left from incomplete crystalisation of the
Portland Cement. Later the lime will unite with water and carbon
dioxide, from the atmosphere and cause efflorescence on the surface of
the papercrete. This can be ameliorated by combining Pozzalon in your
mix , making the papercrete give up the water easier, when it does get
wet. Concrete stem walls defeat the advantage of insulating all the
way to the ground. In fact papercrete generally requires no foundation
at all, as it is monolithic and self supporting. Most important is to
keep water away to start with (wide overhangs, drainage away from the
base and in my case LATEX (( MEANING ACRYLIC PAINT)) Once I began
using pozzalon I could no longer use Drylock masonry sealer, it reacts
with lime and the pozzalon had already used it all up.
There is another problem worth mention here- that of TOO MUCH WATER TO
START WITH- Regardless of your brick mix, all bricks should be dry
before they are used - Mixes can be enhanced radically with the
addition of aggregate (without loss of insulation value,as proved by
Barry Fullers tests of my brick) I am an old fart and sand got heavy
so I switched to lightweight aggregate (Perlite), which is hollow and
insulating also. I shipped the perlite 600 miles with less footprint
than moving sand- P.S.- Do not be misled by purists insisting that
lime is better - not in this case -Clyde - www.evesgarden.org



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Friday, February 22, 2008

[papercreters] introduction and a question or two

hello all,

new to the forum and my first post. what a wealth of info here!!

a quick background on our project..... we're currently in construction
on a series of earthbag structures (as well as a 2.5 meter high
perimeter lot wall) in southern baja. the first structure which is
going up now is a small (approx 5 meters diameter) circular casita for
which we plan to have a semi open roof deck (it will have half walls
and a covered shade roof). the roof/deck layers will consist of
simple floor joist framing, decking (likey reclaimed pallet wood), an
epdm 60mil rubber roof (wrapping up over the parapets) and some sort
of walking surface ontop of the rubber roof. there will be drainage
ports and the floor will have a minimun drainage pitch)

there are commerical rubber roof pavers (lightweight and interlocking)
but they're very expensive and not available where we are.

which is what brought me to papercrete. it would seem at first glance
a great material for making a lightweight paver for this application.
the roof joists can be engineered for whatever load we require (the
less the better though) so while we could use concrete pavers, it
would result in a lot of extra framing. the live load on the surface
won't ever exceed 3-4 people at once.

I realize that papercrete can have moisture issues, and although we're
in a very dry climate most of the year, we do have a couple of months
of intermittent rain plus the occasional hurricane.

I do plan to make some tests of various papercrete mixes myself, but I
was hoping to tap into this wonderful site and it's well of knowledge
if I could.

any suggestions on mixes for this application? additives? I want to
stay as green (and as cheap) as possible but if I needed to use some
sort of sealer or poly or resin I wouldn't be opposed.

I suppose insulation value isn't my main concern, but rather strengh
and water resistance.

sorry for such a long post, and I really appreciate any insights you
all can offer. I did search the archives (and found tons of useful
stuff) but nothing specfic to this possbile use.

thanks!!

lucas


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Thursday, February 21, 2008

[papercreters] Re: Can papercrete be used in latex concrete molds?

Thanks, Mikey, Slurry, Curtis and Frank for all your comments and
insights into this approach to using my molds. It gives me hope I may
be able to handle some of the weight problems afterall. I'll take
that advice on packing and protecting my hands and I'll be looking
for the book. You guys are great and very helpful! Appreciate you!
Lynda

In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Mikey Sklar <sklarm-yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I recommend checking out the new book by George Nez and Albert
Knott
> "Latex Concrete Habitat". Lots of fascinating structures and
thoughts
> behind mixing cement and latex paint. No mention of paper in his
book,
> but it would give you a head start.
>
> When working with cement and lime vinegar can be a great friend.
The
> acidity neutralizes the base of cement/lime. I keep a spray bottle
> full of vinegar and regularly spray my hands through out the day.
I
> also use vinegar on my tools, laundry and work area cleanup in
general.
>
> On Feb 21, 2008, at 6:40 AM, "slurryguy" <slurryguy@...> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps the most simple method I suggest to utilize these type
of
> > molds
> > would be to make an extremely thick slurry. If you can get the
> > consistency to approach modeling clay, it would be best.
> >
> > That would allow you to pack all the details of the mold, then
pack
> > the
> > bulk of the mold, then be able to almost immediately unmold it
onto a
> > screen or sand bed. This will allow it to dry properly.
> >
> > I have not used papercrete in this manner, so I don't know for
certain
> > how well it will work.
> >
> > Safety tip: Using this technique will probably require you to do
a
> > lot
> > of details with your hands in the slurry. WEAR RUBBER GLOVES.
For
> > those that aren't already aware, cement and lime can severely dry
out
> > your skin and in some cases cause burns. At best it is
unpleasant, at
> > worst it can cause serious injury. Latex kitchen work gloves
are
> > cheap
> > and commonly available. If you have a latex allergy, I'm sure
there
> > are some other options on the market.
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda" <wimple6th@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've enjoyed reading the thread concerning papercrete and
> >> modeling/sculpting. That is my area of interest.
> >>
> >> I also have a number of concrete molds for lawn sculpture. Can
> >> papercrete be used in those molds to make lighter weight
statuary?
> > The
> >> molds are mostly latex with fiberglass backing.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts or experience with this?
> >>
> >> Thanks, Lynda
> >>
> >> P.S. Carol: your angel and mushrooms look great!
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>



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[papercreters] Re: PC for patching hole in bricks?

I'll take some pix later today and get them posted.

I did realize that this will more than likely be a temporary solution
to the problem as I neglected to add borax to the mix and don't want to
attract any bugs. If nothing else, it as been a good learning
experience, meaning I stopped thinking about it, got out of the
computer chair, mixed something up, and did something with it!

For example, the little cement-less brick I made and cooked for two
hours (from the leftover patch material) is as hard as a rock on the
outside. I had whacked it pretty good while it was warm out of the
oven and made a small dent. THAT part I can scrape away with my
fingernail. The outer surface, no way. It is relatively heavy probably
due to the large amount of sand I added to it.

A thin slurry of the more paper mache like mix could be rubbed over a
styrofoam egg and stick to it. The patch mix came wouldn't stick at all.

I have just this minute rescued all test pieces of the more mache like
samples from the back yard. They have been sitting out in the rain
since sometime in the night...not a hard rain...a drizzle but the
ground is good and soaked.

The sample that was drained on the bed of sand is wet all the way
through (because I'm sure it never dried all the way through) but
relatively difficult to cut. It was always stronger to begin with.

The other sample, a bit thinner, was and is still more "delicate" for
handling.

The egg piece, with two thin coats of the slurry, is very surprising.
It is the piece that got the driest due to thinness of slurry over a
styrofoam armature. Though totally wet, I can only scratch a bare
amount with my fingernail. A harder "gouge" with the fingernail will
take it to the styro but it was a pretty forceful gouge. Rubbing it
with my thumb causes nothing to rub up with it.

I'm going to sit it in front of my fan to see how quickly it dries
out. The coating is more like cardboard egg carton texture which I
sort of like and could apply to some different sculpting/molding
situations.

As for the patch, the rain is not affecting it. It continues to dry
and lighten up in color. Ironically, my brick has one of those odd
mixes of colors on it, one of them being very close to the patch
color..which looks like our red Alabama clay. Once it completely dries
I will schuss some watered down acrylics on it to make it not look a
giant dirt blob has hit the house. There is a hairline shrinkage line
in a couple of places on the outer edges of the patch but nothing
huge.....yet. Those two places were places where I didn't smear a lot
of patch material over to the ajoining bricks/morter lines.

But, dirt blob or not, the hole is gone for the time being and I have
learned a lot from just a small experiment.

Wonder what kind of fun I can have when I actually add the CEMENT to
the mix???? :-)



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Re: [papercreters] Re: Can papercrete be used in latex concrete molds?

I recommend checking out the new book by George Nez and Albert Knott
"Latex Concrete Habitat". Lots of fascinating structures and thoughts
behind mixing cement and latex paint. No mention of paper in his book,
but it would give you a head start.

When working with cement and lime vinegar can be a great friend. The
acidity neutralizes the base of cement/lime. I keep a spray bottle
full of vinegar and regularly spray my hands through out the day. I
also use vinegar on my tools, laundry and work area cleanup in general.

On Feb 21, 2008, at 6:40 AM, "slurryguy" <slurryguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Perhaps the most simple method I suggest to utilize these type of
> molds
> would be to make an extremely thick slurry. If you can get the
> consistency to approach modeling clay, it would be best.
>
> That would allow you to pack all the details of the mold, then pack
> the
> bulk of the mold, then be able to almost immediately unmold it onto a
> screen or sand bed. This will allow it to dry properly.
>
> I have not used papercrete in this manner, so I don't know for certain
> how well it will work.
>
> Safety tip: Using this technique will probably require you to do a
> lot
> of details with your hands in the slurry. WEAR RUBBER GLOVES. For
> those that aren't already aware, cement and lime can severely dry out
> your skin and in some cases cause burns. At best it is unpleasant, at
> worst it can cause serious injury. Latex kitchen work gloves are
> cheap
> and commonly available. If you have a latex allergy, I'm sure there
> are some other options on the market.
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda" <wimple6th@...> wrote:
>>
>> I've enjoyed reading the thread concerning papercrete and
>> modeling/sculpting. That is my area of interest.
>>
>> I also have a number of concrete molds for lawn sculpture. Can
>> papercrete be used in those molds to make lighter weight statuary?
> The
>> molds are mostly latex with fiberglass backing.
>>
>> Any thoughts or experience with this?
>>
>> Thanks, Lynda
>>
>> P.S. Carol: your angel and mushrooms look great!
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



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[papercreters] Re: Can papercrete be used in latex concrete molds?

Perhaps the most simple method I suggest to utilize these type of molds
would be to make an extremely thick slurry. If you can get the
consistency to approach modeling clay, it would be best.

That would allow you to pack all the details of the mold, then pack the
bulk of the mold, then be able to almost immediately unmold it onto a
screen or sand bed. This will allow it to dry properly.

I have not used papercrete in this manner, so I don't know for certain
how well it will work.

Safety tip: Using this technique will probably require you to do a lot
of details with your hands in the slurry. WEAR RUBBER GLOVES. For
those that aren't already aware, cement and lime can severely dry out
your skin and in some cases cause burns. At best it is unpleasant, at
worst it can cause serious injury. Latex kitchen work gloves are cheap
and commonly available. If you have a latex allergy, I'm sure there
are some other options on the market.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Lynda" <wimple6th@...> wrote:
>
> I've enjoyed reading the thread concerning papercrete and
> modeling/sculpting. That is my area of interest.
>
> I also have a number of concrete molds for lawn sculpture. Can
> papercrete be used in those molds to make lighter weight statuary?
The
> molds are mostly latex with fiberglass backing.
>
> Any thoughts or experience with this?
>
> Thanks, Lynda
>
> P.S. Carol: your angel and mushrooms look great!
>



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