Wednesday, March 31, 2010

Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



I used stucco mesh on metal stud forms for a sprayed project. One test was done with 1/2" chicken wire stretched with metal studs, and it worked for poured papercrete but not for sprayed pc. Several layers would probably work with a sprayer.

The dome panels are just papercrete, no steel in them. They are attached to a pipe frame, and used as the inside of the slip formed dome.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.

On 3/31/2010 8:13 PM, Ron Richter wrote:
Calle,

Talk to Spaceman about the chicken wire idea.  I think he does something like that when he builds the panels for his geodesic domes.  Or if he doesn't, he probably did and has some info on it.

Cheers
Ron




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Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



Thanks and good luck.

Calle


From: Ron Richter <ronerichter@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
To: <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Calle,
I haven't made anything for habitation yet only an 8' X 16' shed for a three wheeler. So I don't really want to share (well I will share but don't use it).  I use 30 lbs of paper and 30 lbs of cement.  That way I get 3 - 160 gallon batches from a bag of cement.  I used to add sand, but found no difference between that and sand-less batches.  Could be I never added enough, but I was putting in the same weight of sand as paper so 30 lbs. 
I am stuck working in Alaska right now, but we are on the verge of doing a comprehensive testing program.  The students needed a science fair project and so I bought an industrial blender and got some cement and we are going to see if the compaction of papercrete affects the R value.  I have 3 thermocouples I will install in the sample (which I am going to make 1" thick) and time the rate of travel from one side of the sample to the other.  Also there should be enough sample to do some rudimentary compression and tension testing.  So the variables will be volume of cement first (we will run a whole battery with various volume of cement changes) then start all over with different pressing pressures.  This may take awhile.  But it will energize me to know more about something that I enjoy playing with.

Talk to Spaceman about the chicken wire idea.  I think he does something like that when he builds the panels for his geodesic domes.  Or if he doesn't, he probably did and has some info on it.

Mikey Sklar also has put chicken wire or wire of some sort on at least a fencing project if not a structure, and he does a lot of spraying with a Tirolessa type sprayer


Cheers
Ron



From: "valledecalle@yahoo.com" <valledecalle@yahoo.com>

 

What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?

I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle


From: "countryatheartok" <criswells.ok@ sbcglobal. net>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:18:24 -0000
To: <papercreters@ yahoogroups. com>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Very Well Written Ron.....You write like a Teacher! ;-)

I have not tried it yet but, I believe if a person is going to build a large enough structure, he could start on one side and pour all the first course completely around the house, and by the time he gets back to the starting point the mix will be set enough to pour the next course, and if you are fast enough or the building isn't really large, I believe you can pour up to 5 courses high before you need to let it rest over night. I'm sure that if you let it rest overnight using my mixture it will be quite hard the next morning and the pouring can start again for another 5 courses. At that rate you could be 8' high in three or four days. Sure beats waiting days on end for blocks to dry enough to lay!

BTB


--- In papercreters@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@ ...> wrote:

 Hi Alexis,
This is a developing question. If you need 4000 bricks to make a structure are you prepared to 1. 1. Make them

2. Have acres to let them dry (weeks in Montana a week in Arizona/New Mexico)

3. Keep them ready (dry) for use

4. Have a way to keep them rain free till use?

As Clair mentioned this is labor intensive. Pour the brick in the mold, wait an hour, pull the mold off, wait a day, turn the bricks, wait a couple of days, turn the bricks again, when dry enough stack the bricks somewhere out of the weather. Some in the arid regions of the US don't have to worry about the weather, but in Montana (Big Sky Country) you do. I tried to get 3 or 4 batches of bricks dry enough to handle in the middle of a nice hot summer and it took weeks. I even built a little greenhouse out of plastic pipe and visqueen (like a quonset hut). It did get warm in there but the humidity was also high. I opened the ends to allow the humidity out and the temp went way down.

This is basically avoided in the T-Lock small form method. With the T-Lock system you need handle the slurry only once. When you make a pour an hour or so is needed for them to set (right out of the mixer no drainage needed). While that batch is setting you can make the next batch (takes me about 45 minutes (fill the mixer with water, weigh the paper, drive around and pulp it, add the cement, drive around and mix it). You can let it sit in the mixer for an hour and much of the water will come to the surface and you can skim it off with a 5 gal bucket. You may be able to get as much as 15 gallons out this way but it is not necessary. Then move the forms to a new location and pour the batch in them. I might add that you can add a batch right on top of the previous pour an hour later, but you should limit this to two levels per day. You may be able to go three rounds if your brick mold is 3" or 4" deep, but mine were 6" and I didn't feel comfortable
going more than 2 green layers a day.

You mentioned the water. The water is going to wet the previous pour and basically prep it for the next contact and better adhesion. If you are using bone dry bricks and you use a thin film of slurry for the mortar, the bottom and top brick may starve the thin film of water. Many have used this method so I won't knock it because even I started this way. I like reducing the "messing around" and the waiting for the bricks to be ready.

You also mentioned shrinkage. The bricks will shrink away from the molds no matter what you do. I had extra slurry to add to the shrinking bricks as they dried (within a half an hour much of the water will drain from the brick laying on the ground) to fill them back up to the top of the mold. More time, less uniformity etc. The bricks will dry in a trapezoidal pattern NOT square. I had trouble with this. When you put them in the wall some stick out some don't and it is a mess. Others will tell you that this is great because the finish stucco has something to stick to. Well it sure is hard to even out and make it look professional. You need to look at Bob's porch addition. It is done the way one would expect a building inspector to make his own - very well. Have a look through his pictures here: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/papercrete rs/photos/ album/1000048770 /pic/1737922790/ view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

 Cheers,
Ron



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Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



Calle,
I haven't made anything for habitation yet only an 8' X 16' shed for a three wheeler. So I don't really want to share (well I will share but don't use it).  I use 30 lbs of paper and 30 lbs of cement.  That way I get 3 - 160 gallon batches from a bag of cement.  I used to add sand, but found no difference between that and sand-less batches.  Could be I never added enough, but I was putting in the same weight of sand as paper so 30 lbs. 
I am stuck working in Alaska right now, but we are on the verge of doing a comprehensive testing program.  The students needed a science fair project and so I bought an industrial blender and got some cement and we are going to see if the compaction of papercrete affects the R value.  I have 3 thermocouples I will install in the sample (which I am going to make 1" thick) and time the rate of travel from one side of the sample to the other.  Also there should be enough sample to do some rudimentary compression and tension testing.  So the variables will be volume of cement first (we will run a whole battery with various volume of cement changes) then start all over with different pressing pressures.  This may take awhile.  But it will energize me to know more about something that I enjoy playing with.

Talk to Spaceman about the chicken wire idea.  I think he does something like that when he builds the panels for his geodesic domes.  Or if he doesn't, he probably did and has some info on it.

Mikey Sklar also has put chicken wire or wire of some sort on at least a fencing project if not a structure, and he does a lot of spraying with a Tirolessa type sprayer


Cheers
Ron



From: "valledecalle@yahoo.com" <valledecalle@yahoo.com>

 

What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?

I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle


From: "countryatheartok" <criswells.ok@ sbcglobal. net>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:18:24 -0000
To: <papercreters@ yahoogroups. com>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Very Well Written Ron.....You write like a Teacher! ;-)

I have not tried it yet but, I believe if a person is going to build a large enough structure, he could start on one side and pour all the first course completely around the house, and by the time he gets back to the starting point the mix will be set enough to pour the next course, and if you are fast enough or the building isn't really large, I believe you can pour up to 5 courses high before you need to let it rest over night. I'm sure that if you let it rest overnight using my mixture it will be quite hard the next morning and the pouring can start again for another 5 courses. At that rate you could be 8' high in three or four days. Sure beats waiting days on end for blocks to dry enough to lay!

BTB


--- In papercreters@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@ ...> wrote:

 Hi Alexis,
This is a developing question. If you need 4000 bricks to make a structure are you prepared to 1. 1. Make them

2. Have acres to let them dry (weeks in Montana a week in Arizona/New Mexico)

3. Keep them ready (dry) for use

4. Have a way to keep them rain free till use?

As Clair mentioned this is labor intensive. Pour the brick in the mold, wait an hour, pull the mold off, wait a day, turn the bricks, wait a couple of days, turn the bricks again, when dry enough stack the bricks somewhere out of the weather. Some in the arid regions of the US don't have to worry about the weather, but in Montana (Big Sky Country) you do. I tried to get 3 or 4 batches of bricks dry enough to handle in the middle of a nice hot summer and it took weeks. I even built a little greenhouse out of plastic pipe and visqueen (like a quonset hut). It did get warm in there but the humidity was also high. I opened the ends to allow the humidity out and the temp went way down.

This is basically avoided in the T-Lock small form method. With the T-Lock system you need handle the slurry only once. When you make a pour an hour or so is needed for them to set (right out of the mixer no drainage needed). While that batch is setting you can make the next batch (takes me about 45 minutes (fill the mixer with water, weigh the paper, drive around and pulp it, add the cement, drive around and mix it). You can let it sit in the mixer for an hour and much of the water will come to the surface and you can skim it off with a 5 gal bucket. You may be able to get as much as 15 gallons out this way but it is not necessary. Then move the forms to a new location and pour the batch in them. I might add that you can add a batch right on top of the previous pour an hour later, but you should limit this to two levels per day. You may be able to go three rounds if your brick mold is 3" or 4" deep, but mine were 6" and I didn't feel comfortable
going more than 2 green layers a day.

You mentioned the water. The water is going to wet the previous pour and basically prep it for the next contact and better adhesion. If you are using bone dry bricks and you use a thin film of slurry for the mortar, the bottom and top brick may starve the thin film of water. Many have used this method so I won't knock it because even I started this way. I like reducing the "messing around" and the waiting for the bricks to be ready.

You also mentioned shrinkage. The bricks will shrink away from the molds no matter what you do. I had extra slurry to add to the shrinking bricks as they dried (within a half an hour much of the water will drain from the brick laying on the ground) to fill them back up to the top of the mold. More time, less uniformity etc. The bricks will dry in a trapezoidal pattern NOT square. I had trouble with this. When you put them in the wall some stick out some don't and it is a mess. Others will tell you that this is great because the finish stucco has something to stick to. Well it sure is hard to even out and make it look professional. You need to look at Bob's porch addition. It is done the way one would expect a building inspector to make his own - very well. Have a look through his pictures here: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/papercrete rs/photos/ album/1000048770 /pic/1737922790/ view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

 Cheers,
Ron



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[papercreters] Re: shop press



My formula is 3-2-1, which I use a gallon as a measurement method and I double it to fill my form because I know that is exactly what it takes to fill my form. So to make it simple I first pulp my paper, (just water and shredded paper, see my mixing paddle) until it looks like oatmeal, some like Doris and Ron pour their pulped paper on the ground to let it drain a little before they put it into a mixer, my mix is not as wet as their's so I don't have to drain mine as much. I simply dip out 6 gallons of the wet paper pulp, doesn't really matter if some batches are a little wetter than others, just don't get them too wet where there is a lot of visible water. I put those 6 gallons into my concrete mixer, and then I add my 2 gallons of cement. I let that mix very well until I can't see anymore paper, just a gray blob. After I think it has mixed enough I add my 4 gallons of clay, or some times I add 2 gallons of clay and 2 gallons of sand, I could add just 4 gallons of sand, but I would not get that nice color that I get when I use clay, just depends on what I want as a finished product. I let that mix until I hear it ploping in the mixer, once you've heard this sound you will know what to listen for the next time, if you don't hear that sound you probably have too much water in the mix and will need to add either more clay, sand, or cement or drier paper pulp to dry it up some. Once I feel like it is mixed enough I dump it into my wheelbarrow and move it to my wall, I try to mix very close to where I am working so I don't have to travel so far. I load the form, packing it  tight as I go, and I trowel the  top so the next course will set level when I get back around to that point. This method really goes fast and is not very labor intensive, even for us old folks. What I love about this formula is how fast it hardens.

And yes this could be considered a Slip form wall, just so happens it creates "T's". Doris and Ron use a true slip form with no "T's", either way works, just what ever works best for you. The method Doris and Ron uses takes more product to fill their longer forms, and I don't want to work that hard. Call me lazy, you won't hurt my feelings! ha ha Ron in Alaska uses about the same size form that I use only he uses wood and it looks like it works just as good as my steel and is a heck of a lot cheaper.


 In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, valledecalle@... wrote:

What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?
I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle



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[papercreters] Thanks..... shop press



Calle


From: "countryatheartok" <criswells.ok@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:41:15 -0000
To: <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

My formula is 3-2-1, which I use a gallon as a measurement method and I double it to fill my form because I know that is exactly what it takes to fill my form. So to make it simple I first pulp my paper, (just water and shredded paper, see my mixing paddle) until it looks like oatmeal, some like Doris and Ron pour their pulped paper on the ground to let it drain a little before they put it into a mixer, my mix is not as wet as their's so I don't have to drain mine as much. I simply dip out 6 gallons of the wet paper pulp, doesn't really matter if some batches are a little wetter than others, just don't get them too wet where there is a lot of visible water. I put those 6 gallons into my concrete mixer, and then I add my 2 gallons of cement. I let that mix very well until I can't see anymore paper, just a gray blob. After I think it has mixed enough I add my 4 gallons of clay, or some times I add 2 gallons of clay and 2 gallons of sand, I could add just 43 gallons of sand, but I would not get that nice color that I get when I use clay, just depends on what I want as a finished product. I let that mix until I hear it ploping in the mixer, once you've heard this sound you will know what to listen for the next time, if you don't hear that sound you probably have too much water in the mix and will need to add either more clay, sand, or cement or drier paper pulp to dry it up some. Once I feel like it is mixed enough I dump it into my wheelbarrow and move it to my wall, I try to mix very close to where I am working so I don't have to travel so far. I load the form, packing it  tight as I go, and I trowel the  top so the next course will set level when I get back around to that point. This method really goes fast and is not very labor intensive, even for us old folks. What I love about this formula is how fast it hardens.


 In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, valledecalle@... wrote:

What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?
I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle



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[papercreters] Re: shop press



My formula is 3-2-1, which I use a gallon as a measurement method and I double it to fill my form because I know that is exactly what it takes to fill my form. So to make it simple I first pulp my paper, (just water and shredded paper, see my mixing paddle) until it looks like oatmeal, some like Doris and Ron pour their pulped paper on the ground to let it drain a little before they put it into a mixer, my mix is not as wet as their's so I don't have to drain mine as much. I simply dip out 6 gallons of the wet paper pulp, doesn't really matter if some batches are a little wetter than others, just don't get them too wet where there is a lot of visible water. I put those 6 gallons into my concrete mixer, and then I add my 2 gallons of cement. I let that mix very well until I can't see anymore paper, just a gray blob. After I think it has mixed enough I add my 4 gallons of clay, or some times I add 2 gallons of clay and 2 gallons of sand, I could add just 43 gallons of sand, but I would not get that nice color that I get when I use clay, just depends on what I want as a finished product. I let that mix until I hear it ploping in the mixer, once you've heard this sound you will know what to listen for the next time, if you don't hear that sound you probably have too much water in the mix and will need to add either more clay, sand, or cement or drier paper pulp to dry it up some. Once I feel like it is mixed enough I dump it into my wheelbarrow and move it to my wall, I try to mix very close to where I am working so I don't have to travel so far. I load the form, packing it  tight as I go, and I trowel the  top so the next course will set level when I get back around to that point. This method really goes fast and is not very labor intensive, even for us old folks. What I love about this formula is how fast it hardens.


 In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, valledecalle@... wrote:

What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?
I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle



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Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



What is your formula? I keep thinking that block is so labor intensive,

Is your method what they call "slip walls"?

I even thought of making a wall form with a layer of chicken wire in the middle of the PC , let it dry and put it between studs. Then top it with sprayed PC.

Calle


From: "countryatheartok" <criswells.ok@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:18:24 -0000
To: <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Very Well Written Ron.....You write like a Teacher! ;-)

I have not tried it yet but, I believe if a person is going to build a large enough structure, he could start on one side and pour all the first course completely around the house, and by the time he gets back to the starting point the mix will be set enough to pour the next course, and if you are fast enough or the building isn't really large, I believe you can pour up to 5 courses high before you need to let it rest over night. I'm sure that if you let it rest overnight using my mixture it will be quite hard the next morning and the pouring can start again for another 5 courses. At that rate you could be 8' high in three or four days. Sure beats waiting days on end for blocks to dry enough to lay!

BTB


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:

 Hi Alexis,
This is a developing question. If you need 4000 bricks to make a structure are you prepared to 1. 1. Make them

2. Have acres to let them dry (weeks in Montana a week in Arizona/New Mexico)

3. Keep them ready (dry) for use

4. Have a way to keep them rain free till use?

As Clair mentioned this is labor intensive. Pour the brick in the mold, wait an hour, pull the mold off, wait a day, turn the bricks, wait a couple of days, turn the bricks again, when dry enough stack the bricks somewhere out of the weather. Some in the arid regions of the US don't have to worry about the weather, but in Montana (Big Sky Country) you do. I tried to get 3 or 4 batches of bricks dry enough to handle in the middle of a nice hot summer and it took weeks. I even built a little greenhouse out of plastic pipe and visqueen (like a quonset hut). It did get warm in there but the humidity was also high. I opened the ends to allow the humidity out and the temp went way down.

This is basically avoided in the T-Lock small form method. With the T-Lock system you need handle the slurry only once. When you make a pour an hour or so is needed for them to set (right out of the mixer no drainage needed). While that batch is setting you can make the next batch (takes me about 45 minutes (fill the mixer with water, weigh the paper, drive around and pulp it, add the cement, drive around and mix it). You can let it sit in the mixer for an hour and much of the water will come to the surface and you can skim it off with a 5 gal bucket. You may be able to get as much as 15 gallons out this way but it is not necessary. Then move the forms to a new location and pour the batch in them. I might add that you can add a batch right on top of the previous pour an hour later, but you should limit this to two levels per day. You may be able to go three rounds if your brick mold is 3" or 4" deep, but mine were 6" and I didn't feel comfortable
going more than 2 green layers a day.

You mentioned the water. The water is going to wet the previous pour and basically prep it for the next contact and better adhesion. If you are using bone dry bricks and you use a thin film of slurry for the mortar, the bottom and top brick may starve the thin film of water. Many have used this method so I won't knock it because even I started this way. I like reducing the "messing around" and the waiting for the bricks to be ready.

You also mentioned shrinkage. The bricks will shrink away from the molds no matter what you do. I had extra slurry to add to the shrinking bricks as they dried (within a half an hour much of the water will drain from the brick laying on the ground) to fill them back up to the top of the mold. More time, less uniformity etc. The bricks will dry in a trapezoidal pattern NOT square. I had trouble with this. When you put them in the wall some stick out some don't and it is a mess. Others will tell you that this is great because the finish stucco has something to stick to. Well it sure is hard to even out and make it look professional. You need to look at Bob's porch addition. It is done the way one would expect a building inspector to make his own - very well. Have a look through his pictures here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/1737922790/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

 Cheers,
Ron



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[papercreters] Re: shop press



Very Well Written Ron.....You write like a Teacher! ;-)

I have not tried it yet but, I believe if a person is going to build a large enough structure, he could start on one side and pour all the first course completely around the house, and by the time he gets back to the starting point the mix will be set enough to pour the next course, and if you are fast enough or the building isn't really large, I believe you can pour up to 5 courses high before you need to let it rest over night. I'm sure that if you let it rest overnight using my mixture it will be quite hard the next morning and the pouring can start again for another 5 courses. At that rate you could be 8' high in three or four days. Sure beats waiting days on end for blocks to dry enough to lay!

BTB


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:

 Hi Alexis,
This is a developing question. If you need 4000 bricks to make a structure are you prepared to 1. 1. Make them

2. Have acres to let them dry (weeks in Montana a week in Arizona/New Mexico)

3. Keep them ready (dry) for use

4. Have a way to keep them rain free till use?

As Clair mentioned this is labor intensive. Pour the brick in the mold, wait an hour, pull the mold off, wait a day, turn the bricks, wait a couple of days, turn the bricks again, when dry enough stack the bricks somewhere out of the weather. Some in the arid regions of the US don't have to worry about the weather, but in Montana (Big Sky Country) you do. I tried to get 3 or 4 batches of bricks dry enough to handle in the middle of a nice hot summer and it took weeks. I even built a little greenhouse out of plastic pipe and visqueen (like a quonset hut). It did get warm in there but the humidity was also high. I opened the ends to allow the humidity out and the temp went way down.

This is basically avoided in the T-Lock small form method. With the T-Lock system you need handle the slurry only once. When you make a pour an hour or so is needed for them to set (right out of the mixer no drainage needed). While that batch is setting you can make the next batch (takes me about 45 minutes (fill the mixer with water, weigh the paper, drive around and pulp it, add the cement, drive around and mix it). You can let it sit in the mixer for an hour and much of the water will come to the surface and you can skim it off with a 5 gal bucket. You may be able to get as much as 15 gallons out this way but it is not necessary. Then move the forms to a new location and pour the batch in them. I might add that you can add a batch right on top of the previous pour an hour later, but you should limit this to two levels per day. You may be able to go three rounds if your brick mold is 3" or 4" deep, but mine were 6" and I didn't feel comfortable
going more than 2 green layers a day.

You mentioned the water. The water is going to wet the previous pour and basically prep it for the next contact and better adhesion. If you are using bone dry bricks and you use a thin film of slurry for the mortar, the bottom and top brick may starve the thin film of water. Many have used this method so I won't knock it because even I started this way. I like reducing the "messing around" and the waiting for the bricks to be ready.

You also mentioned shrinkage. The bricks will shrink away from the molds no matter what you do. I had extra slurry to add to the shrinking bricks as they dried (within a half an hour much of the water will drain from the brick laying on the ground) to fill them back up to the top of the mold. More time, less uniformity etc. The bricks will dry in a trapezoidal pattern NOT square. I had trouble with this. When you put them in the wall some stick out some don't and it is a mess. Others will tell you that this is great because the finish stucco has something to stick to. Well it sure is hard to even out and make it look professional. You need to look at Bob's porch addition. It is done the way one would expect a building inspector to make his own - very well. Have a look through his pictures here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/1737922790/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

 Cheers,
Ron



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Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



Hi Alexis,
This is a developing question.  If you need 4000 bricks to make a structure are you prepared to 1.make them 2. have acres to let them dry (weeks in Montana a week in Arizona/New Mexico) 3. keep them ready (dry) for use 4. have a way to keep them rain free till use?  As Clair mentioned this is labor intensive.  Pour the brick in the mold, wait an hour, pull the mold off, wait a day, turn the bricks, wait a couple of days, turn the bricks again, when dry enough stack the bricks somewhere out of the weather.  Some in the arid regions of the US don't have to worry about the weather, but in Montana (Big Sky Country) you do.  I tried to get 3 or 4 batches of bricks dry enough to handle in the middle of a nice hot summer and it took weeks.  I even built a little greenhouse out of plastic pipe and visqueen (like a quonset hut). It did get warm in there but the humidity was also high.  I opened the ends to allow the humidity out and the temp went way down.

This is basically avoided in the T-Lock small form method.  With the T-Lock system you need handle the slurry only once. When you make a pour an hour or so is needed for them to set (right out of the mixer no drainage needed).  While that batch is setting you can make the next batch (takes me about 45 minutes (fill the mixer with water, weigh the paper, drive around and pulp it, add the cement, drive around and mix it).  You can let it sit in the mixer for an hour and much of the water will come to the surface and you can skim it off with a 5 gal bucket.  You may be able to get as much as 15 gallons out this way but it is not necessary.  Then move the forms to a new location and pour the batch in them.  I might add that you can add a batch right on top of the previous pour an hour later, but you should limit this to two levels per day.  You may be able to go three rounds if your brick mold is 3" or 4" deep, but mine were 6" and I didn't feel comfortable going more than 2 green layers a day.

You mentioned the water.  The water is going to wet the previous pour and basically prep it for the next contact and better adhesion.  If you are using bone dry bricks and you use a thin film of slurry for the mortar, the bottom and top brick may starve the thin film of water.  Many have used this method so I won't knock it because even I started this way.  I like reducing the "messing around" and the waiting for the bricks to be ready.

You also mentioned shrinkage.  The bricks will shrink away from the molds no matter what you do.  I had extra slurry to add to the shrinking bricks as they dried (within a half an hour much of the water will drain from the brick laying on the ground) to fill them back up to the top of the mold.  More time, less uniformity etc.  The bricks will dry in a trapezoidal pattern NOT square.  I had trouble with this.  When you put them in the wall some stick out some don't and it is a mess.  Others will tell you that this is great because the finish stucco has something to stick to.  Well it sure is hard to even out and make it look professional.  You need to look at Bob's porch addition.  It is done the way one would expect a building inspector to make his own - very well. Have a look through his pictures here:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/1737922790/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Cheers,
Ron
--- On Wed, 3/31/10, Greg House <ghunicycle@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Greg House <ghunicycle@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 5:39 AM

 

Seems to me that trying to compress blocks with a shop press would be extremely slow. I guess if you could move them right after pressing that would be better. Perhaps you could put together some sort of vertical stack pressing jig so you'd get more blocks per press?

Greg


From: smt460 <smt460@yahoo. com>
To: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 8:00:16 AM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Hi i havent posted in a while but we have done somework with compressing blocks.
First you need to let the water drain off or it will just
shoot out everywhere and make a big mess.
We found that the blocks dont dry any faster but you can
handel them right off the press but you must be extreamly
carfull when doing this and lay them flat for 1 day
then stand them on there edge.
As for r value Barry Fuller did tests and said it dint
effect the r value but you should pick up a copy of his
report just to be sure.
Hope this helps
You can see our press in the pics area Called
Clair and Bruces pics
Happy papercreting
ps the snow is almost gone lol

--- In papercreters@ yahoogroups. com, "alexis.marcil" <alexis.marcil@ ...> wrote:
>
> Can you explain your t molds a bit? I was looking at compressing to avoid the long drying time and also make the block more solid, hopefully without disminishing the r value.
>
> Does your molds allow you to reduce shrinking/drying time?
>
> thanks
>




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Re: [papercreters] Re: shop press



Seems to me that trying to compress blocks with a shop press would be extremely slow. I guess if you could move them right after pressing that would be better. Perhaps you could put together some sort of vertical stack pressing jig so you'd get more blocks per press?

Greg


From: smt460 <smt460@yahoo.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 8:00:16 AM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: shop press

 

Hi i havent posted in a while but we have done somework with compressing blocks.
First you need to let the water drain off or it will just
shoot out everywhere and make a big mess.
We found that the blocks dont dry any faster but you can
handel them right off the press but you must be extreamly
carfull when doing this and lay them flat for 1 day
then stand them on there edge.
As for r value Barry Fuller did tests and said it dint
effect the r value but you should pick up a copy of his
report just to be sure.
Hope this helps
You can see our press in the pics area Called
Clair and Bruces pics
Happy papercreting
ps the snow is almost gone lol

--- In papercreters@ yahoogroups. com, "alexis.marcil" <alexis.marcil@ ...> wrote:
>
> Can you explain your t molds a bit? I was looking at compressing to avoid the long drying time and also make the block more solid, hopefully without disminishing the r value.
>
> Does your molds allow you to reduce shrinking/drying time?
>
> thanks
>




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[papercreters] Re: shop press

Hi i havent posted in a while but we have done somework with compressing blocks.
First you need to let the water drain off or it will just
shoot out everywhere and make a big mess.
We found that the blocks dont dry any faster but you can
handel them right off the press but you must be extreamly
carfull when doing this and lay them flat for 1 day
then stand them on there edge.
As for r value Barry Fuller did tests and said it dint
effect the r value but you should pick up a copy of his
report just to be sure.
Hope this helps
You can see our press in the pics area Called
Clair and Bruces pics
Happy papercreting
ps the snow is almost gone lol


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "alexis.marcil" <alexis.marcil@...> wrote:
>
> Can you explain your t molds a bit? I was looking at compressing to avoid the long drying time and also make the block more solid, hopefully without disminishing the r value.
>
> Does your molds allow you to reduce shrinking/drying time?
>
> thanks
>


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Tuesday, March 30, 2010

[papercreters] Re: shop press

Can you explain your t molds a bit? I was looking at compressing to avoid the long drying time and also make the block more solid, hopefully without disminishing the r value.

Does your molds allow you to reduce shrinking/drying time?

thanks

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Monday, March 29, 2010

[papercreters] Re: shop press

YES, I did. I bought the 20 ton model, it doesn't come with a bottle
jack. I wanted to buy a 20 ton air assisted bottle jack but they didn't
have any in stock and didn't know if they would ever have them in stock
again, so I bought a 12 ton air assisted bottle jack instead. The first
try at making a brick was a 14" long 4" schd40 pvc pipe like the one
shown in the file section under Brisque. It worked well, my next idea
was to design a 24"x9"x12" form hoping it would compress down to
24"x6"x12" and using a mixture of 3 parts paper 2 parts sand and 1 part
cement doubled, I came up with the exact amount it took to fill the
form, I compressed it down to 6" and when I removed the form and tried
to lift the block it was extremely heavy, don't know how much the wet
one weighted but when it dried I weighted it and it came in at 60
pounds, much to heavy to work with, I believe it was the sand that made
it weigh so much. I then designed the "T Lock" method and decided I
would never use the shop press method again unless I could come up with
a formula that would not weigh so much and if I decided to maybe sell
hollow blocks.


In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "alexis.marcil" <alexis.marcil@...>
wrote:

Has anyone tried to press pc mix in a mold on a shop press? Harbor
freigh has some cheap 6 tons shop press and I think they could be easily
modified to press a pc block...

thanks

Alexis


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Re: [papercreters] shop press



Hi Alexis,
Bob the builder has one he made with an air assist bottle jack similar to those you mention from HARBOR FREIGHT.  There are many that have been made with no hydraulic advantage some are quite inventive.  If you are interested in one at a time brick making here are some videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPuMqgKaX24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaiYKDyUtAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CoECgnqtXg&NR=1

And here is a group that made CEB bricks for a structure with it fairly automated.  They even built the tractor and its implements. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV_-ZzYmo3A&feature=related

This is a little different than PC but the basic principals are the same.  In a place where water is scarce you would want to collect your "squeezings" and re-use them to make your next batch. 

I've been toying with an auger to drive PC through a compression mold.  I has taken back seat to other projects.  Bob and I have both become enamored with the small T-lock block molds.  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/591081946/pic/256395996/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=as) or (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/591081946/pic/1138039837/view?picmode=medium&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc)

Look at Bob's pictures, he makes his forms with metal.
Takes away the need for a brick press completely.
Ron

--- On Sun, 3/28/10, alexis.marcil <alexis.marcil@gmail.com> wrote:
 

Has anyone tried to press pc mix in a mold on a shop press?
Alexis



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Sunday, March 28, 2010

[papercreters] shop press

Has anyone tried to press pc mix in a mold on a shop press? Harbor freigh has some cheap 6 tons shop press and I think they could be easily modified to press a pc block...

thanks

Alexis

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Friday, March 26, 2010

[papercreters] Workshops and other natural building events

Hi folks,

Duckchow's message the other day about the upcoming Natural Building
Colloquium reminded me that I need to let you all know about our
revised, updated, and generally spiffy Sustainable Building Calendar
at <http://calendar.sustainablesources.com>. We've been posting
workshops, bale raisings, conferences, colloquia, and the like since
about 1997, and we've now made it easier and cleaner for you to post
yours too.

So if you're going to be doing anything of the sort that's open to
the public - for free or for fee - go to our Calendar and click the
"Add Your Event" link at the top of the left hand column. We'd love
to have more hands-on events. We'll review it to be sure it's on
topic and not spam, and most likely approve it within a day or three.
If you only remember to post it a day or two before please be sure to
email me directly and ask me to approve it or it might not go live in
time. Sometimes I'm busy with other stuff for a few days and forget
to update the calendar...

And for any of you who have your own green/natural/sustainable
building web site, you can now display the upcoming events on your
own page through an RSS feed - providing your site with up to date
content every day to draw you more visitors. Let me know if you
have questions....


--
Bill Christensen
<http://greenbuilder.com/contact/>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <http://directory.greenbuilder.com>
Sustainable Building Calendar: <http://Calendar.SustainableSources.com>
Green Real Estate: <http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/>
Straw Bale Registry: <http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/>
Books/videos/software: <http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/>


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Thursday, March 25, 2010

Re: [papercreters] mixing concrete



I did not say you should not use clay with cement, I said concrete. There is a difference between cement and concrete. Portland cement is the gray stuff that comes in a bag. Concrete is portland cement with aggregate in it, normally sand and rocks, and enough water to work it.  Dirt with cement in it is stabilized earth, not concrete.

Clay expands when it gets wet and will cause concrete to crack and spall. That is an entirely different thing from the stabilized earth that is being discussed.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.

On 3/24/2010 10:20 AM, Greg House wrote:
   
From: Spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net>     
   
And yes, you should not put clay in concrete.        
 Remind me why you shouldn't use clay with cement? I thought it acted as a pozzolan? Is that only certain types of clay?  Thanks, Greg


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[papercreters] Re: mixing concrete

This winter I completed a 17x21 foot patio using an electric concrete mixer using just the earth on the ground and cement mixed 5 scoops earth and 1 scoop cement. It looked and worked like concrete and is solid. I'd recommend the next guy or gal use 2 scoops cement just to be safer.

This method worked great as the earth I dug out to make the patio was taken straight into the mixer. 1 five gallon bucket equaled 5 scoops so I filled two buckets earth, added two scoops of cement, and them poured it back down as cement. Be sure to pull aside 4 buckets worth of earth to give yourself some working room on the ground. use these 4 in the end to finish up the job.

I also believe you need to minimize the clay to less then 20%. Use the soil in a glass bottle method (with water) to find out what you have.

It'd also make a nice top coat over a papercrete wall.

Joel

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "alexis.marcil" <alexis.marcil@...> wrote:
>
> when I said earthcrete, I was really thinking of soil cement/ stabilized soil...
>
> From what I read, you're not supposed to have more than 10% clay in your soil and then you add 5 to 15% of portland cement.
>
> I made some test block using soil from my yard wich is mostly clay. I didn't add sand and added 10% portland cement. The result is a very hard block that doesn't seem to suffer from the clay content.
>
> I will let it dry a few days still and then will test the strenght...
>
> Alexis
>


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[papercreters] Structural engineer



Does anyone have contact information for a structural engineer in New Mexico who is familiar with papercrete? I have sold my unfinished, unpermitted papercrete house and the new owner would like to get a permit and have me finish it.


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[papercreters] Re: mixing concrete

when I said earthcrete, I was really thinking of soil cement/ stabilized soil...

From what I read, you're not supposed to have more than 10% clay in your soil and then you add 5 to 15% of portland cement.

I made some test block using soil from my yard wich is mostly clay. I didn't add sand and added 10% portland cement. The result is a very hard block that doesn't seem to suffer from the clay content.

I will let it dry a few days still and then will test the strenght...

Alexis

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Wednesday, March 24, 2010

[papercreters] Re: mixing concrete

Cement works well at stabilising soil, including clay soil, and has long been used. Putting dry cement powder down and raking it before applying gravel is a good way to stop the gravel sinking in.

I've always called it earthcrete, but cant be sure if that's the usual terminology.


NT

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Re: [papercreters] mixing concrete

>From: Spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net>

>>And yes, you should not put clay in concrete.

Remind me why you shouldn't use clay with cement? I thought it acted as a pozzolan? Is that only certain types of clay?

Thanks,
Greg



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Re: [papercreters] mixing concrete



According to the references I found online, Earthcrete varies a lot in formula - paper fibers, ceramics, industrial by-products, clay, other minerals. It uses almost no portland cement. Earthcrete is what they are calling a product made by Sonoma Cast Stone.

And yes, you should not put clay in concrete. Earthcrete is not concrete, nor is it cement stabilized soil.

spaceman

On 3/24/2010 8:57 AM, Greg House wrote:

Both earthcrete and concrete should be mixed with just enough water to       
make them workable, and I don't think a tow mixer would work for stirring them. You want more of a slow paddle action.      
  What's earthcrete? Combination of cement and soil? I thought there was some discussion on here recently that said you couldn't successfully combine clay and cement?     


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Re: [papercreters] mixing concrete

>>Both earthcrete and concrete should be mixed with just enough water to
>make them workable, and I don't think a tow mixer would work for
>stirring them. You want more of a slow paddle action.


What's earthcrete? Combination of cement and soil? I thought there was some discussion on here recently that said you couldn't successfully combine clay and cement?


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Re: [papercreters] mixing concrete



I don't think it would do either very well. The tow mixer depends on lots of water to keep the material moving through the spinning blade, similar to a blender. Try mixing earthcrete or concrete with that much water and you probably won't get a strong mix. Papercrete has fibers that hold the cement as the water drains away, in a completely different process from concrete.

Both earthcrete and concrete should be mixed with just enough water to make them workable, and I don't think a tow mixer would work for stirring them. You want more of a slow paddle action.

spaceman

On 3/23/2010 8:37 PM, alexis.marcil wrote:

Hi,  did anybody try to mix earthcrete or concrete in their tow mixer?  thanks  Alexis   


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