Papercreters: [papercreters] Re: fire-proofing, etc.

That's a good question. I made papercrete molds with added lime
and they seemed to "rockify" in about 3 months. But just adding
uncarbonated lime by about a third, seems to reduce combustion quite
a bit.

Another post mentioned it; dilute hydrofluoric acid added to mixes
or as a wash, should strengthen and harden lime & gypsum cretes quite
a bit, because fluoric acid will bind with calcium to form fluorite
crystals, the same kind that strengthen your teeth & bones.

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--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <shadowweaver2010@...> wrote:
>
>
> Im curious, I understand the concept of adding lime to the papercrete to allow the lime and paper create a rock like substance but my question is how long does it take for this process to actually occur? I mean is it with in days after pouring or is it more like months or years. I am still new to all of this and trying to absorb all the information I can.
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "germeten" <germeten@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well OK then !)
> >
> > But getting back to fire-proofing, I think the ammonium borate mixed
> > with gypsum and portland papercretes (sand optional) will create some
> > interesting chemistry and probably be much harder than ordinary PC.
> > Lime and carbon from paper, form stone, which as you all know,
> > doesn't burn very well. Only downside is that hydrated lime costs
> > more than portland.
> >
> > On the other hand, gypsum can be cheap. But it would need to be pure
> > gypsum, not the mixes sold at hardware stores (too many additives); I
> > tried adding NH3B to those lightweight mixes and it didn't work.
> >
> > Gypsum's setting time can be delayed by adding citric acid.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Boersema" <picknick@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Slacked lime is hydrated lime only once it has soaked in water usually
> > > recommended time of at least 3 days but can be much longer. The slacking
> > > process is the stirring of the dry powder into the water and getting all the
> > > lumps out.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On
> > > Behalf Of germeten
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:49 PM
> > > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [papercreters] Re: fire-proofing, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi don;
> > >
> > > Well I'm sure you know that slaked lime and hydrated lime are the
> > > same. But I believe it may have been unslaked lime mixed with boiled
> > > oil that medieval castle builders used. Anyway so long as the calcium
> > > hasn't bonded with carbon, either from the air, or another source its
> > > in contact with, then it should work.
> > >
> > > Ammonium sulfate I've purchased from chemical and garden supply houses
> > > (as a fertilizer); also you could make it yourself from ammonia and
> > > sulfuric acid. It's not so cost effective though.
> > >
> > > Oil and portland cement, that is interesting because heavy oil can be
> > > used for coating molds to remove cement castings, I wouldn't think of
> > > using it in the cement; but cement does contain some gypsum and
> > > calcium so the hydrocarbons and lime probably does initiate a
> > > chemical exchange, from sulfate to carbonate. Also silica and carbon
> > > could form carbonates, etc. That's a great idea for a coating and
> > > sealer. Last time I checked, portland is cheaper than free lime. Rock
> > > dust sold by landscapers is already carbonated, although that could
> > > be driven off by heat, which is how the cement-making process is done.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > --- In papercreters@ <mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > yahoogroups.com, Donald Miller <donald1miller@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Interesting observations. A couple of dumb questions. First, what is the
> > > difference between slaked lime and regular hydrated lime? Where is ammonium
> > > sulfate available? I am currently making blocks with cardboard pulp and clay
> > > with no cement and I bought some boric acid to spray the walls with (when
> > > they're finished, of course) for fireproofing as I talked to some straw pale
> > > people who do that for fire retardancy and also to repel insects. I haven't
> > > tried it yet so don't know if it will work or how well.
> > > > Â
> > > > As for used vegetable oil, I have been collecting that for some time now
> > > to power my pickup with and last winter after noticing how the oil that
> > > spilled on the top and the sides of my barrels interacted with the fine clay
> > > dust to make a hard rubbery coating, I made a mixture or oil and portland
> > > cement with a small amount of fine sand and coated some of my walls I had
> > > put up for a windbreak. It dried into a hard cementous surface with the
> > > ability to shed water which is greatÂ because all papercrete regardless of
> > > the amount of cement uses will absorb water. I did not do this very
> > > scientifically as to the proportions of the mix but was very pleased with
> > > the results. I also coated part of a wooden structure and it stuck very well
> > > to that and also an adobe shed and once again it coated that well. It makes
> > > kind of a greenish color to the blocks but perhaps in the summer sun will
> > > bleach out. I plan on doing more with this when I get my house walls up. I
> > > > applied this with a paint brush and not very thick but one could useÂ a
> > > roller to speed up the process. The beauty part is that it doesn't take a
> > > lot of the mix and with the oil in mixture it absorbs readily into the
> > > papercrete./fidobe.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 5/4/10, germeten <germeten@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: germeten <germeten@>
> > > > Subject: [papercreters] fire-proofing, etc.
> > > > To: papercreters@ <mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 12:28 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all, this is my first post, be gentle!
> > > >
> > > > Several observations made before joining this forum. Henley's Manual has a
> > > recipe for fire-proofing:
> > > >
> > > > "Paper is rendered fireproof by saturating with a solution of:
> > > >
> > > > Ammonium sulfate 8 parts
> > > > Boric acid 3 parts
> > > > Borax 2 parts
> > > > Water 100 parts
> > > >
> > > > This is very similar to the formula for hardening gypsum:
> > > >
> > > > "Dissolve boric acid in hot water and add sufficient ammonia water to
> > > > the solution that the borate at first separated is redissolved. The
> > > > gypsum to be cast is stirred with this liquid or the gypsum once dried
> > > > is painted with the solution which is quickly absorbed. Articles
> > > > treated this way are as hard as stone."
> > > >
> > > > So maybe adding gypsum to paper-crete is the way to go.
> > > >
> > > > I experimented making paper-crete molds and found that by adding
> > > > slaked lime, the paper (which is mostly carbon) bonds with the
> > > > lime over time to form calcium-carbonate (rock) which doesn't
> > > > support combustion. I used about a third lime to portland. Possible
> > > > to treat with borates afterwards, if still found necessary.
> > > >
> > > > Portland and gypsum could be the ticket.
> > > >
> > > > And lastly, during the middle ages, mortar for cementing stones was made
> > > with a combination of unslaked lime and boiled oil which held
> > > > the stone. Chemistry is similar: Hungry lime + hungry hydrocarbon =
> > > > calcium-carbonate stone. This would make a fine coating for exterior
> > > > and inside plaster for papercrete structures, and I'll bet deep-fry
> > > > grease from restaurants could serve as the boiled oil.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>