-------------- Original message --------------__._,_.___
From: "John Annesley" <John@AnnesleyPhoto.com>
Yes Neal, you're quite correct that I meant nonflammable. I wasn't paying attention and
got caught in the illogical workings of the English language there. Usually words with 'in'
mean the reverse of the root word, like sane and insane. But 'in' isn't a prefix in this case,
and 'flammable' isn't the root- they're of a piece, derived from Latin.
As for your observation that asphalt emulsion might not infiltrate the pores of the paper
any better than perlite, think of tar paper which is basically paper infiltrated with asphalt
emulsion. Asphalt emulsion readily absorbs into cellulose and acts both as a binder and
waterproofing agent in a papercrete mix, and doesn't negatively affect cement or clay.
Also, the asphalt emulsion is nonflammable, but I don't know how much would need to be
used to keep papercrete from smoldering. Perlite is a rock and won't infiltrate paper at all,
unless you dissolve perlite dust into the papercrete, which wou ld be of no advantage since
the goal is to use the light weight aggregate as nonflammable, non mold supporting
insulation, perhaps replacing the paper entirely if that's what it takes to make a mix that
won't support smoldering or fire.
I think you're probably right about asphalt emulsion being an expensive additive, as Jack
Bays who made paperadobe back in the 1920's, 30's, 40's, and I think maybe up into the
50's, used roughly the equivalent of 5 gallons of asphalt emulsion per 200 gallon mixer
load of paperadobe. (He used a pint per 5 gallon bucket of paperadobe). At $27 per five
gallons of asphalt emulsion, its not real cheap. Perlite is around $20 for six cubic feet. 200
gallons is about 27 cubic feet. To replace even 50% of the total volume of a 200 gallon tow
mixer load of papercrete with perlite, it would take 2.5 bags of perlite at a cost of $50,
which is almost twice the cost of 5 gallons of asphalt emulsion. (As pointed out in an
earlier post by someone, buying perlite in bulk can drastically reduce the price.)
Something of note about perlite, is that its R value per inch is almost that of rolled
fiberglass insulation, when the perlite is used as loose fill. It has an R value of 2.7 per
inch. Once settled, fiberglass has the exact same R value, and cellulose loose fill blown in
insulation when settled is said to have an R value of 3 per inch.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups. , sire@... wrote:com
>
> You must mean "nonflammable". "Inflammable" = flammable. Capable of catching fire
easily and burning rapidly.
>
> I would guess that asphalt emulsion is far more expensive than perlite or any other
additive. Moreover, it may not "infiltrate the pores of the paper" any better than perlite.
>
> Neal
>
> -------------- Original message ------------ --
> From: "John Annesley" <John@...>
> Hi Connie,
> Well in kind, let me repeat my already given answer, copied and pasted
> from my last response to you-
>
> "How am I going to insulate my yurt shaped thingy? That's still
> debatable as I like a lot of other folks on here like dense papercrete
> and paperadobe because its inflammable. (I've built an oven out of the
> stuff and it doesn't even char the surface after hours and hours of
> burning scrap wood in it.) However, that stuff isn't very insulative.
> I don't like the idea of insulation that smolders, or walls that
> smolder but don't burn. I live in an area without a fire district,
> meaning no fire department. I acknowledge the sentiment of many folks
> on here who say they'd prefer to live in a house that smolders and
> gives ample warning so you can get out with your life and remove your
> valuables, or even break ap art the offending sections of wall and
> fight the smoldering fire, rather than in a home that burns down
> around you before you can get out. Personally, I'd rather live in
> neither. I like the idea of perlite because its light weight and
> doesn't burn or mold, but I don't know that it would be a good admix
> with papercrete to make the paper less apt to smolder because unlike
> cement or clay, perlite isn't going to infiltrate the pores of the
> paper. Perlite instead of paper might work well, but six cubic feet of
> perlite is still about twenty bucks where I live, I'm not sure if I
> can get it by the truckload which would definitely be cheaper. I'm
> thinking of perhaps slipforming several inches of perlite, adobe soil
> and a little lime, but this could be costly unless I can find a bulk
> source for perlite. Then, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I
> intend to erect a thermal mass wall insid e of the insulating layer:
> probably sandbags filled with tamped adobe. I'm also looking into the
> various Jack Bays Rub-R-Slate mixes- he started building with pulped
> paper, clay soil and asphalt emulsion back in the 30's. I was
> intrigued to see that the EPA considers asphalt emulsion non-toxic and
> it waterproofs papercrete and paperadobe. He made floors, walls, and
> roofs with the stuff in various mixes and proportions, often adding
> sand for compressive strength."
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups. , "Robert & Connie" <losee04@>com
> wrote:
> >
> > So, to repeat my previous question, John, how do you plan to insulate
> > the structure? What are you going to use inside the burlap structure
> > to make the walls energy efficient on your present structure?
> >
> > If you were going to build a dome with the four layers of burlap,
> > would you do the same thing to insulate the walls or would you do
> > something different since the shape of a dome sometimes makes using
> > standard house insulation more challenging?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Connie
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups. , "Nick Boersema" <picknick@>com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My concern with building a metal framed structure and coating it in
> > wire,
> > > was to find a way
> > > to trap the wire as part of a structural matrix with the coating.
> > With
> > > burlap draped over the
> > > wire with PC blown onto the burlap, the PC might stick to the
> > burlap, but to
> > > get the b urlap
> > > then to adhere to the wire seems to me would require a mechanical
> > bond like
> > > hog rings
> > > every several inches or something. Same with the carpet. I was
> > trying to
> > > emulate
> > > ferrocement using fiber instead of steel, and quickening the pace
> > of the
> > > process by being
> > > able to dip the fiber (burlap) into a slurry and drape it over an
> > armature
> > > instead of
> > > meticulously suture expanded metal lath onto the wire armature. The
> > fact
> > > that the slurry
> > > sets up rock hard inside of half an hour also advances the pace of
> > the
> > > process, as night
> > > temps are still often below freezing and I didn't want to wait
> > until later
> > > in the year to get
> > > going on the project: freezing while setting up can often ruin
> > cement based
> > > curing
> > > processes.
> > >
> > > John what about using your burlcrete as the shell. Then spraying
> > successive
> > > layers of papercrete with borax and lime (relatively light high R
> > value).
> > > Once you have your R value gradually switch your mix to a heavier
> > mass
> > > oriented recipe and continue to spray layers or slipform which ever
> > you find
> > > easiest. If your light papercrete is sandwiched between a hard
> > sealed outer
> > > shell and a heavy almost adobe inner shell how can it smolder much
> > less
> > > ignite?
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> >
>
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