Sunday, October 28, 2012

Re: [papercreters] Re: Combustibility -- was Paperceret Smell



I fail to understand all the concerns about papercretes combustibility. Any type of structure short of a concrete bunker is going to be combustible. The fact that papercrete smolders and smolders slowly is a plus as it gives you time to locate the problem and put the smolder out. If papercrete were to catch on fire on the outside or inside it is easy to locate. I can't envision the walls starting to combust internally. If electrical boxes are installed correctly and the wiring in general is done properly there should be little or no chance of sparks or enough heat to start a fire. There is always that random chance but there is also a random chance that you could get run over by a runaway truck as well.
If your papercrete wall should, for whatever reason, start to smolder, wouldn't any reasonably competent person see and or smell the smoke and take action to rectify the situation? The fact that it smolders slowly is in your favor as it gives you time to fix the problem as opposed to a conventional structure which, once starting to burn, is going to be a raging inferno in short order. As you point out Jay, the codes say that a sheetrocked wall will hold out an hour before bursting into flame. Once that wall starts to burn it's going to burn very rapidly whereas the papercrete wall after an hour will still be smoldering.
As far as a building collapsing, are you trying to tell me that the structure is going to burn completely around the perimiter and up the walls, which would have to happen to cause a total collapse of the structure? Once again, a person would be able to detect the smoke and find the smoldering part long before it reached this state. I haven't seen or read any reports of "improperly built" houses collapsing short of a complete burn of a house which of course results in the roof finally collapsing into the totally burnt remains of the structure. By this time anyone still in the building will be a goner.
Another plus of the papercrete wall is that if and when you have a fire, or, I should say, smolder, you can replace the burnt part much easier than with a conventionally built building. And, I think I mentioned in my original post on this subject that I plan to use a boric acid spray to help at least make the blocks fire retardent. I also make a stucco mix of the fine clay soil I am blessed with on my building site, and enough unusable cooking oil, (too thick and gummy to burn in my truck), to make a paste with, for coating my exterior walls. This makes a noncombustible waterproof coating, and yes it stands up to the propane torch test. I have used this on my storage building which is built with conventional 2X4's on 16" centers sheeted externally with OSB board. It dries very hard and rubbery after a short time in the desert sun.
As far as a lot of testing goes, I recall a test of a propane torch placed against a conventionally built papercrtete block for an extended period of time with the only result being charring of the block. Now, if you tried the same experiment with a piece of plywood, OSB board or a piece of 2X4 what do you think the result would be? They would all burst into flame in short order and burn completely whereas even a cardboard block such as I am making, no cement of aggregate, would take much longer to burn completely. What this tells me is that I feel confident building with papercrete and am not going to nick pick and worry the whole procedure to death. (No pun intended) :) The point I'm trying to make is that we are completely comfortable living in conventionally built houses which burn readily, and worry excessiviely, in MHO, about papercrete. I also like the idea of having the better insulative properties of the blocks as I make them. I live in the Sonoran desert of extreme SW Arizona and in the sunmer I need all the help I can get as the summer daytime temperatures reach well beyong 100 degrees, often well above 110.
Once again, I find what I'm doing works for me and I'm not advocating my methods and procedures as the only way, just sharing information. I have learned so much from this forum by other people who have shared their procedures and by trying different methods I have arrived at a solution that works with the materials and needs I have.


--- On Sun, 10/28/12, JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Combustibility -- was Paperceret Smell
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:08 AM

 
Bobby makes excellent points.

Even if your cardboard only blocks do not support flame, they may slowly smolder for a very long time inside a wall without anyone noticing.  If/when enough papercrete turns to ash, the entire structure and roof system could be compromised and collapse.


However, all need not be lost.

As Donald pointed out.  Standard stick framed structures are vulnerable to fire and burn down all the time.  It is very possible that his cardboard blocks are safer than standard framing due to a slower combustion rate.  IF PEOPLE ARE AWARE THAT THE PAPERCRETE IS BURNING.  The biggest concern might be when someone smells a hint of smoke for a week and can't find the fire until after half the structure wants to collapse on them.


Bobby also very accurately points out that Donald's structure is his own, and he is more than entitled to build it as he sees fit.  I wholeheartedly endorse that sentiment.  Especially if the structure being built only puts at risk the guy who is building it.


Assuming someone wants to build using blocks that are combustible.  I encourage some slight alterations in the typical techniques used to lay up the blocks in the wall.

I encourage manufacturing an appropriate number of "fire stopping" blocks that can be laid in the wall in such a way as to prevent any fires from spreading throughout the entire structure.  

Just as standard stick framed construction requires fire blocking to prevent stud cavities from becoming chimneys that spread fire quickly.  A limited number of strategically placed "fire stopping" blocks might serve a similar function in a papercrete wall.

If one were to lay up blocks in a wall with a non combustible row ever few feet, fire would not be able to spread vertically beyond that fire stop.  If columns of non combustible blocks were also laid in the wall ever few feet, horizontal spreading of smoldering fires could also be stopped.

I can also imagine that using a non combustible plaster inside and out would also be extremely useful.  

Using a non combustible layer of plaster, even if it is a non combustible papercrete plaster could be used in all utility cutouts for wiring and ventilation.  I suspect that other than from a wood stove, the easiest way to start a papercrete wall smoldering might be via an electrical malfunction.  If all those wiring pathways were coated with a non combustible layer, you could probably prevent any sparks from igniting the papercrete in the first place.  Even better would be to use electrical conduit as well as a non combustible plaster layer inside the channels cutout for wiring runs.


Another technique would be to use a non-combustible papercrete mortar to lay up the combustible blocks.  That would tend to isolate each block individually helping to prevent the spread of a smoldering fire from one block to the next.

In my opinion it is simpler and better to build entirely out of a non-smoldering papercrete.  I would like to see this be considered standard "best practice" for building with papercrete.  The small additional costs are justified for the added value and peace of mind.

However, if someone is determined to do otherwise, I do think that if someone takes appropriate precautions and takes advantage of the above suggestions it is possible to build papercrete structures using some portion of combustible paperctete that are at least safer than standard "code approved" structures.  How well someone pays attention to the details would be important for success.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "liberty1_27606" <liberty1@...> wrote:
>
> Donald,
> Your project is your own, to do as you please.  But ---  there is a real problem with combustibility.  Even though a block may only smoulder slowly, eventually it will become all ash, with no structural strength.  And it will set the one next to it on fire.  And the next.  Then your whole wall has no strength.  No big conflagration with dramatic flames, but the building collapses. If I remember right,even back then, Gordon was concerned. 
> I would suggest you do fire tests on some sample blocks. And leave it overnight in a safe place.  The next day, if there is a small area of ash, that's OK.  But if the whole block is ash, it needs some help,
> I believe there are inexpensive borax or boric acid sources. And it only takes a small percentage. A month or so ago there was a discussion about borax. 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boric_acid>
> (For those using clay or cement; in sufficient quantities, they also retard fire.)
> Bobby


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