Friday, July 11, 2008

[papercreters] Re: new project help

Dad8 may be looking to pour everything in one large pour. At least a
large pour between each set of posts. Mikey Sklar has proven with
his Battery Room that large monolithic pours can be accomplished
successfully.

yes a monolithic pour between poles is what I wanted to do.

however slip form might be more practical ?????

Would love to hear more about Mikey Sklar success with this..

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "slurryguy" <slurryguy@...> wrote:
>
> Symantics, shmantics.
>
> I thought Dad8's use of the term "Pole Barn" was perfectly
> acceptable. I never got the impression that he was describing the
> function of the structure with that term, but using it to create a
> mental image of the style of contstuction that was being used to hold
> up the roof. Also, many people have converted Barn structures into a
> home. Common practice is still to call those structures barns, even
> though the only animals inside are human (and maybe a canine or
> feline or two.)
>
> There are significant differences in the manner of construction of a
> Pole Barn and a Timber Frame.
>
> While the exact technical definition of Timber Frame construction
> only indicates the use of strutural wood posts and beams, it commonly
> implies an extensive use of impressive mortice and tenon joinery,
> those really awesome scarf joints, and wooden pegs holding a lot
> things together. When done well, the structural timbers can be more
> than engineering support, but a wonderful work of art in themselves
> at the same time. When I think of timberframe, I think of the
> carpentry, not just some poles and a simple roof.
>
> A pole barn is simply a bunch of posts (of whatever material) holding
> up a roof. It implies none of the fancy old school carpentry. I
> think this is what Dad8 intended to convey.
>
> I thought Dad8's first post to this group was an excellent effort,
> and he should not be concerned about getting into a semantic argument
> about the exact technical meaning of words. He conveyed his meaning
> very well.
>
>
> "Slipforming" is by definition done in stages as Neal describes.
> Pour a layer. Wait for the layer to set. "Slip" the forms up. Pour
> another layer. Repeat as needed.
>
> Dad8 may be looking to pour everything in one large pour. At least a
> large pour between each set of posts. Mikey Sklar has proven with
> his Battery Room that large monolithic pours can be accomplished
> successfully.
>
> Tim Pye's experience with large pours had lots of problems (huge
> cavernous cracks), UNTIL HE STARTED COMPRESSING THE PAPERCRETE.
>
> Both slipforming and large monolithic pours are viable techniques to
> use, but only when done properly. Compressing the papercrete within
> an hour after the pour helps drastically with either method. The
> forms must be built strong enough to withstand the compression
> process without blowing out.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, sire@ wrote:
> >
> > In the spirit of Slurryguy's admonition to help others, I'll add a
> few comments to his excellent commentary on dad's questions. I
> admire someone who is able to itemize his questions and logically
> address the various aspects of the project. However, coming from
> someone who has read about papercrete till his eyes hurt, it seems to
> indicate that the general public has quite a few misconceptions about
> what papercrete is and how to use it in construction. There are
> others in this group more qualified to comment on this project than I
> am, but hopefully I will reinforce the points that SG made and add a
> few thoughts from my own understanding.
> >
> > Dad, when you say you are building a "pole barn", I thought this
> would literally be a barn, but it turns out that it will be a
> dwelling, more like a getaway cabin for your wife and kids (without
> you?). Getaway places are usually for the summer, but the mention
> of wood heat implies winter use also, so perhaps this will be a year-
> round second home? The structure seems to be basically a
> timberframe with papercrete infill.
> >
> > Latex on the inside is optional but not necessary. Latex on the
> outside would be far more beneficial almost required a part of the
> waterproofing. As SG writes, borax or boric acid would best be
> applied in a way that it would not drain away with the excess water,
> perhaps a spray coat on the outside after the walls have dried.
> Borax is commonly used in laundry and boric acid in the garden, so
> this will not be a danger to the boys unless they are eating the
> papercrete for dinner. :)
> >
> > Slipforming the walls and pouring them up to 8' would be fine, but
> it must be done in stages, as slipforming implies, probably 2' at a
> time. You will have to wait at least a few days between courses for
> drying. Like adobe, stawbale, cob, etc., papercrete walls should be
> thick. I would say they should probably be at least 1' thick in
> order to provide insulation and stability. Thick walls will also
> make unnecessary any reinforcement in the walls, which SG has already
> mentioned would be problematic anyway with papercrete shrinking away
> from metal. Do not make the plywood forms waterproof and remove
> them as quickly as feasible to allow the walls to dry out as quickly
> as possible.
> >
> > We have recently discussed again the advantages of papercrete as a
> floor, but if it is necessary to have this structure "just above the
> ground", this may not be practical. In any case I do not see the
> reason you are thinking of using a plastic liner when pouring the
> papercrete floor, nor can I imagine why you would want to cover the
> floor with plywood because that seems unnecessary.
> >
> > There are very many reasons not to attempt a papercrete roof.
> Perhaps now you can intuit some of them, but if not they could be
> detailed in a separate post if desired.
> >
> > Neal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> > From: "dad8now" <mark_bal_christian@>
> > I am new to PC and have been reading until my eyes hurt.
> >
> > I have a 17 acre all forest in Missouri, with little or no building
> > codes.
> >
> > The floor will be just above ground with skirting around the
> > perimeter.
> >
> > I want to build a small pole barn for seasonal use using Six inch
> > beams and 8 FT tall walls
> >
> > So my PC wall will be 6" thick and 8" tall. And 10 FT wide between
> > beams
> >
> > There will be no load on the walls.
> >
> > I will latex paint the inside walls and leave the outside natural.
> >
> > Here is the PC recipe I'm considering using.
> >
> > 1 part news print (DRY) by weight
> >
> > 1 part Portland (DRY) by weight
> >
> > 1/9 of a part hydrated lime (DRY) by weight
> >
> > ????? boric acid for bug/ rot / fire retarding ???
> >
> > I want to pour the wall up right between the beams with removable
> > forms on both sides.
> >
> > We will heat with wood.
> >
> > My wife and three small boys will be using this new get away.
> >
> > Here are my questions so far:
> >
> > 1) Will chicken wire fastened in the center of the 6" beams be
> > enough reinforcement since the walls bare no weight? Or should I
> add
> > vertical rebar every 2 ft??
> >
> > 2) Do I need the boric acid? And if so how much to be effective
> > but not be hazardous to my little boys?
> >
> > 3) How many days should I leave the plywood forms on to minimize
> > shrinking until walls cure?
> >
> > 4) Would making the forms watertight prevent shrinking until
> > cured 5 days and then remove the forms?
> >
> > 5) What R factor would this wall recipe probably have?
> >
> > 6) Could I attach 6mil plastic liner to inside all around the
> > walls down to he ground and then use this same PC recipe as a
> > subfloor and then cover with ½ plywood?
> >
> > 7) Would a 6" thick PC 2/12 pitch roof need to be waterproofed
> > or left natural? Or water proofed with marine grade polyurethane
> > varnish?
> >
> > thanks for this group,
> >
> > Dad8now
> >
>

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