Have you considered a papercrete floor?
OK,, with an air space under my floor level what are the methods used
to make a PC floor?
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "slurryguy" <slurryguy@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Dad8,
>
> Welcome to the group.
>
> Your project sounds interesting. I look forward to reading more
> posts from you as your project progresses. I have several thoughts
> for you.
>
> Boric Acid:
>
> Borax is a lot easier to work with in papercrete slurry than Boric
> Acid. Several members have had good success using good old laundry
> borax. I cannot find one documented success story of someone using
> Boric Acid in Papercrete and liking the results. (I encourage
> someone to post a Boric Acid/Papercrete success story if they have or
> know of one. Heck, feel free to post an unsuccessful Boric Acid
> story. I'd like to learn about either story.)
>
> My opinion about Boric Acid is that maybe past attempts have used it
> incorrectly. Past attempts that I'm aware of have involved adding
> the acid in the wet papercrete mix. I theorize that a significant
> amount of the Boric Acid drains out of the papercrete and therefore
> doesn't stay inside the material where it can do any good.
>
> If someone is determined to use Boric Acid, I wonder if a better way
> to use it would be to create a dilute solution and spray it over the
> surface of DRY papercrete and allow it to soak in. To my knowledge,
> THIS IDEA IS COMPLETELY UNTESTED WITH PAPERCRETE. Logically, it
> should be effective, but I offer no guarantees. I also think that it
> might be a reasonable way to treat existing papercrete already inside
> a structure that may be having mold or insect problems. (Keep in
> mind that the first actions for mold in papercrete is to KEEP IT
> DRY. No amount of Borax or Boric Acid is a substitute for proper
> building practices and keeping the papercrete DRY!.)
>
> I don't have any hard data, but I suspect that Boric Acid is
> significantly less effective as a fire suppressant than Borax is.
>
> I encourage you to mix up a bucket or two of papercrete and
> experiment with no borate additives, Borax, and Boric Acid using
> various techniques and see what performs best under the conditions
> you expect to have.
>
> Of course, please post to the group about what you do and what you
> learn.
>
> Natural?
>
> You commented that you wanted to use latex on the interior and leave
> the outside, "natural."
>
> Are you saying that you want to leave the exterior papercrete exposed
> to the weather? If so, this is NOT a good idea. Papercrete is a
> wood product, made from wood fibers. It needs to be protected.
>
> Your specific questions:
>
> 1) Will chicken wire fastened in the center of the 6" beams be
> enough reinforcement since the walls bare no weight? Or should I add
> vertical rebar every 2 ft??
>
> No. I do not recommend trying to reinforce papercrete by attempting
> to embed metal inside it.
>
> A far better use of the chicken wire would be to embed it into a
> surface ferro-cement layer or stucco finish. Have you considered
> using something like chicken wire as part of a permeable formwork
> that can be left in place? It could take the place of your plywood.
> You could easily plaster or stucco over it. Your 6" thick walls are
> rather thin for papercrete. Papercrete has a low tensile strength,
> so a reinforcement strategy will probably be very imporant to keep
> the papercrete from wanting to bow in or out. My suggestion is to
> try various ideas on a test on a small area and see for yourself what
> makes sense.
>
> Using rebar reinforcement in a surface layer of chicken wire may be
> helpful. Don't try to embed rebar inside wet papercrete and expect
> it to stiffen the wall. This has been attempted previously. As the
> papercrete dries it tends to shrink, and it will shrink away from
> objects embeded inside it, like rebar. The rebar won't be of much
> value if it is rattling around loose in a papercrete cavity.
>
> 3) How many days should I leave the plywood forms on to minimize
> shrinking until walls cure?
> and
> 4) Would making the forms watertight prevent shrinking until
> cured 5 days and then remove the forms?
>
>
> Papercrete shrinks. Get used to it. Playing games with keeping
> papercrete wet is going down the wrong path. It's asking for
> problems. Shift your thinking to be able to adapt and work
> around/with the shrink once it happens. The length of time the
> formwork is left in place will not have any significant impact upon
> the amount the papercrete shrinks when it is finally dry. (and you
> must get papercrete completely dry)
>
> The best method I've found to minimize shrinkage is to wear insulated
> underwear in cold weather. (hehehehe. Sorry, I've been entirely too
> serious through most of this post. I had to toss a joke in there
> somewhere. Okay everyone, keep it clean. This group is rated "G".)
>
> There are several factors that determine how much papercrete
> shrinks. Higher paper content recipes tend to shrink more. If the
> drained, but still damp slurry is compressed, this will significantly
> reduce shrinkage. The better it is compressed, the less it will
> shrink. There is a point of diminishing returns.
>
> If your experiments demonstrate an unacceptable amount of shrink
> incorporating the above tactics, the next step is to alter your
> forming system. You can adjust your forms to be larger than what you
> want the final papercrete size to be and allow the papercrete to
> shrink down to the desired final size.
>
> Another possibility is to add more papercrete to fill in the gaps
> after the first round of papercrete dries and shrinks down.
>
> How long you leave any temporary formwork in place will be determined
> by how long it takes for your papercrete to be self supporting. Once
> the formwork is no longer needed for support, it can be removed to
> speed the drying process along. (don't let papercrete sit around wet
> longer than necessary.)
>
> 5) What R factor would this wall recipe probably have?
>
> There's not enough data available yet to predict accurately. The
> amount the damp slurry is compressed can vary this number to a large
> degree. Assuming minimal compression, I would guess that recipe
> looks like about an R3 per inch mix. YMMV. Compressing the damp
> slurry will IMPROVE the R factor. (paper is NOT fiberglass) With a
> few hundred lbs/sqin damp slurry compression this might climb close
> to the R4 per inch range. This does not factor in the posts or other
> materials that will be included in your wall structure.
>
> 6) Could I attach 6mil plastic liner to inside all around the
> walls down to he ground and then use this same PC recipe as a
> subfloor and then cover with ½ plywood?
>
> This depends. Are you planning on pouring wet papercrete on top of
> this plastic? If that is your intent, I offer my strongest words of
> warning available. I do not recommend this procedure. Wet
> papercrete needs to drain away its excess water. The plastic will
> trap it in place. The papercrete would take a very long time to dry
> and this is always asking for trouble. Mold would probably grow on
> the bottom of the papercrete next to the plastic. The mold might not
> be visible there, and you wouldn't know about it. I know I wouldn't
> want to expose my family to that.
>
> On the other hand, if you plan on placing DRY papercrete blocks or
> portable slabs on top of the plastic, this may be an excellent idea.
> If the area under the plastic is a moisture rich environment, the
> vapor barrier makes a lot of sense.
>
> Yes, plywood can be placed on top of papercrete if you choose. Glue
> will be a better fastener for the plywood than nails.
>
> Have you considered a papercrete floor?
>
>
> 7) Would a 6" thick PC 2/12 pitch roof need to be waterproofed
> or left natural? Or water proofed with marine grade polyurethane
> varnish?
>
> In a Missouri forest?? You bet it needs to be waterproofed.
> Papercrete will act like a sponge and soak up water. It can absorb
> many tons of weight in just one rain. An untreated papercrete roof
> is dangerous. KEEP PAPERCRETE DRY
>
> ALWAYS KEEP IT DRY.
>
> I can't say it enough. KEEP IT DRY!
>
> I do not recommend using a varnished papercrete roof. Shingles or
> metal roofing make a LOT more sense. Shingles are inherintly
> redundant. Don't be afraid to get creative and find an inexpensive
> shingle material.
>
> 8???) thanks for this group,
>
> dad8... the absolute best way you can offer thanks is to contribute.
>
> Ask lots of questions.
>
> Post frequently about your very interesting project.
>
> Pictures? Where's your pictures man? You can at least post a
> picture of the empty site where the building is going to go up.
>
> Do you have the ability to post video clips on YouTube? We have a
> group area on YouTube for our papercrete stuff.
>
> The greatest thank-you anyone can give for this group is to give
> back. Help someone else! What areas do you have experience with?
> Look for someone asking a question that you can answer or provide
> insight.
>
> I'm not speaking only to Dad8 here. I'm speaking to everyone. If
> you appreciate the group. Show that appreciation by trying to help
> someone. You just might be surprised at how much you help yourself
> in the process.
>
> I wish you success with your project, Dad8.
>
> Have Fun...
>
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "dad8now"
> <mark_bal_christian@> wrote:
> >
> > I am new to PC and have been reading until my eyes hurt.
> >
> > I have a 17 acre all forest in Missouri, with little or no building
> > codes.
> >
> > The floor will be just above ground with skirting around the
> > perimeter.
> >
> > I want to build a small pole barn for seasonal use using Six inch
> > beams and 8 FT tall walls
> >
> > So my PC wall will be 6" thick and 8" tall. And 10 FT wide between
> > beams
> >
> > There will be no load on the walls.
> >
> > I will latex paint the inside walls and leave the outside natural.
> >
> > Here is the PC recipe I'm considering using.
> >
> > 1 part news print (DRY) by weight
> >
> > 1 part Portland (DRY) by weight
> >
> > 1/9 of a part hydrated lime (DRY) by weight
> >
> > ????? boric acid for bug/ rot / fire retarding ???
> >
> >
> > I want to pour the wall up right between the beams with removable
> > forms on both sides.
> >
> > We will heat with wood.
> >
> > My wife and three small boys will be using this new get away.
> >
> > Here are my questions so far:
> >
> > 1) Will chicken wire fastened in the center of the 6" beams be
> > enough reinforcement since the walls bare no weight? Or should I
> add
> > vertical rebar every 2 ft??
> >
> > 2) Do I need the boric acid? And if so how much to be effective
> > but not be hazardous to my little boys?
> >
> > 3) How many days should I leave the plywood forms on to minimize
> > shrinking until walls cure?
> >
> > 4) Would making the forms watertight prevent shrinking until
> > cured 5 days and then remove the forms?
> >
> > 5) What R factor would this wall recipe probably have?
> >
> > 6) Could I attach 6mil plastic liner to inside all around the
> > walls down to he ground and then use this same PC recipe as a
> > subfloor and then cover with ½ plywood?
> >
> > 7) Would a 6" thick PC 2/12 pitch roof need to be waterproofed
> > or left natural? Or water proofed with marine grade polyurethane
> > varnish?
> >
> > thanks for this group,
> >
> > Dad8now
> >
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
mailto:papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
