Symantics, shmantics.
I thought Dad8's use of the term "Pole Barn" was perfectly
acceptable. I never got the impression that he was describing the
function of the structure with that term, but using it to create a
mental image of the style of contstuction that was being used to hold
up the roof. Also, many people have converted Barn structures into a
home. Common practice is still to call those structures barns, even
though the only animals inside are human (and maybe a canine or
feline or two.)
There are significant differences in the manner of construction of a
Pole Barn and a Timber Frame.
While the exact technical definition of Timber Frame construction
only indicates the use of strutural wood posts and beams, it commonly
implies an extensive use of impressive mortice and tenon joinery,
those really awesome scarf joints, and wooden pegs holding a lot
things together. When done well, the structural timbers can be more
than engineering support, but a wonderful work of art in themselves
at the same time. When I think of timberframe, I think of the
carpentry, not just some poles and a simple roof.
A pole barn is simply a bunch of posts (of whatever material) holding
up a roof. It implies none of the fancy old school carpentry. I
think this is what Dad8 intended to convey.
I thought Dad8's first post to this group was an excellent effort,
and he should not be concerned about getting into a semantic argument
about the exact technical meaning of words. He conveyed his meaning
very well.
"Slipforming" is by definition done in stages as Neal describes.
Pour a layer. Wait for the layer to set. "Slip" the forms up. Pour
another layer. Repeat as needed.
Dad8 may be looking to pour everything in one large pour. At least a
large pour between each set of posts. Mikey Sklar has proven with
his Battery Room that large monolithic pours can be accomplished
successfully.
Tim Pye's experience with large pours had lots of problems (huge
cavernous cracks), UNTIL HE STARTED COMPRESSING THE PAPERCRETE.
Both slipforming and large monolithic pours are viable techniques to
use, but only when done properly. Compressing the papercrete within
an hour after the pour helps drastically with either method. The
forms must be built strong enough to withstand the compression
process without blowing out.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, sire@... wrote:
>
> In the spirit of Slurryguy's admonition to help others, I'll add a
few comments to his excellent commentary on dad's questions. I
admire someone who is able to itemize his questions and logically
address the various aspects of the project. However, coming from
someone who has read about papercrete till his eyes hurt, it seems to
indicate that the general public has quite a few misconceptions about
what papercrete is and how to use it in construction. There are
others in this group more qualified to comment on this project than I
am, but hopefully I will reinforce the points that SG made and add a
few thoughts from my own understanding.
>
> Dad, when you say you are building a "pole barn", I thought this
would literally be a barn, but it turns out that it will be a
dwelling, more like a getaway cabin for your wife and kids (without
you?). Getaway places are usually for the summer, but the mention
of wood heat implies winter use also, so perhaps this will be a year-
round second home? The structure seems to be basically a
timberframe with papercrete infill.
>
> Latex on the inside is optional but not necessary. Latex on the
outside would be far more beneficial almost required a part of the
waterproofing. As SG writes, borax or boric acid would best be
applied in a way that it would not drain away with the excess water,
perhaps a spray coat on the outside after the walls have dried.
Borax is commonly used in laundry and boric acid in the garden, so
this will not be a danger to the boys unless they are eating the
papercrete for dinner. :)
>
> Slipforming the walls and pouring them up to 8' would be fine, but
it must be done in stages, as slipforming implies, probably 2' at a
time. You will have to wait at least a few days between courses for
drying. Like adobe, stawbale, cob, etc., papercrete walls should be
thick. I would say they should probably be at least 1' thick in
order to provide insulation and stability. Thick walls will also
make unnecessary any reinforcement in the walls, which SG has already
mentioned would be problematic anyway with papercrete shrinking away
from metal. Do not make the plywood forms waterproof and remove
them as quickly as feasible to allow the walls to dry out as quickly
as possible.
>
> We have recently discussed again the advantages of papercrete as a
floor, but if it is necessary to have this structure "just above the
ground", this may not be practical. In any case I do not see the
reason you are thinking of using a plastic liner when pouring the
papercrete floor, nor can I imagine why you would want to cover the
floor with plywood because that seems unnecessary.
>
> There are very many reasons not to attempt a papercrete roof.
Perhaps now you can intuit some of them, but if not they could be
detailed in a separate post if desired.
>
> Neal
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "dad8now" <mark_bal_christian@...>
> I am new to PC and have been reading until my eyes hurt.
>
> I have a 17 acre all forest in Missouri, with little or no building
> codes.
>
> The floor will be just above ground with skirting around the
> perimeter.
>
> I want to build a small pole barn for seasonal use using Six inch
> beams and 8 FT tall walls
>
> So my PC wall will be 6" thick and 8" tall. And 10 FT wide between
> beams
>
> There will be no load on the walls.
>
> I will latex paint the inside walls and leave the outside natural.
>
> Here is the PC recipe I'm considering using.
>
> 1 part news print (DRY) by weight
>
> 1 part Portland (DRY) by weight
>
> 1/9 of a part hydrated lime (DRY) by weight
>
> ????? boric acid for bug/ rot / fire retarding ???
>
> I want to pour the wall up right between the beams with removable
> forms on both sides.
>
> We will heat with wood.
>
> My wife and three small boys will be using this new get away.
>
> Here are my questions so far:
>
> 1) Will chicken wire fastened in the center of the 6" beams be
> enough reinforcement since the walls bare no weight? Or should I
add
> vertical rebar every 2 ft??
>
> 2) Do I need the boric acid? And if so how much to be effective
> but not be hazardous to my little boys?
>
> 3) How many days should I leave the plywood forms on to minimize
> shrinking until walls cure?
>
> 4) Would making the forms watertight prevent shrinking until
> cured 5 days and then remove the forms?
>
> 5) What R factor would this wall recipe probably have?
>
> 6) Could I attach 6mil plastic liner to inside all around the
> walls down to he ground and then use this same PC recipe as a
> subfloor and then cover with ½ plywood?
>
> 7) Would a 6" thick PC 2/12 pitch roof need to be waterproofed
> or left natural? Or water proofed with marine grade polyurethane
> varnish?
>
> thanks for this group,
>
> Dad8now
>
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