Papercreters: May 2008

Friday, May 30, 2008

[papercreters] Re: Spacemans's PC Slab

Hi spaceman & slurryguy
in the process of trying to calculate costs per square meter\foot I've
stumbled upon spaceman's dome floor slab.
A. thanx a lof for the info but...
B. you wrote "paper portland ratio is 10:1".
do you refer to dry\wet volume\weight?
anyway 300$ for 55 square foot insulating floor is imprasive.

does anyone else have cost calculations for the following:
1. Slabs, no matter thickness, running foot by foot.
2. forms casting, per running foot (height?)
3. blocks, focused on one's with high R-value, but constructive as well.

I'm still digging info from posts, and would share all data as
spreadsheet as soon as I have enough info.

thank you all
udi

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[papercreters] Re: Cardboard through a chipper for papercrete

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <kujo85344@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am planning on building a garage using papercrete. I have access to
> alot of currently trashed daily cardboard boxes. I was thinking that
> if these were put through a chipper then they may be used to make
> papercrete. Is this a correct assumption?

If the cardboard is not waxed, it is certainly possible, although a
chipper would be far from idea. Cardboard is one of the harder papers
to work with, honestly. I would only consider doing it if I had a tow
mixer or using a pressure washer to pulp it. I have done a small
amount of presoaked cardboard in my mortar mixer as well, but it takes
ALOT longer to pulp than other papers, especially newsprint.
Obviously, if it is free it may make all other considerations less. =)

- Ernie

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Thursday, May 29, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

Question:---About Darjit - how easy is it to make a viable kitchen counter?

Answer- It would be easy to do but I haven't made counter tops yet.

Question:---From the "fountain" application, I surmise it's waterproof and all that. Is
it reasonably economical?

Answer- Yes

Question---What about coloration and upkeep long term?

Answer- I buy the colorant from Granite and Home Depot. I put it in the top 1/4" of Darjit to make it go a long way and it will last for years and years. If you want richer colors there is a place in San Fransisco called Sinopia www.sinopia.com that carries all kinds of color pigments.

Question---Do you treat it like concrete?

Answer- yes, but you don't have to seal it, you can buff it with wax if you like or leave it as is.

Question---Is it a mold-able material if I cast it?

Answer-yes, depending on the mold.

Question---1.5" thick?
Answer- I will be pouring/sculpting my floors that thick but you could get away with less.

Question---How heavy is it per board foot (a square 12"x12"x1" thick)?

Answer- It would depend on your mix recipe. I will do a test piece and get back to you.

Question---What tools do I need?

Answer-The tools I used on my pantry floor was some pieces of scrap sheet metal, a rubber spatula, a cement trowel and a bucket to hold the Darjit in, a drill and paddle bit to mix the Darjit and a pencil to sketch the pattern on the floor. To the Darjit you add old acrylic house paint (that you can get for free at a hazmat place) sand and cement.

I will be starting about 2000 sf. worth of floor in about a week. If you would like your more then welcome by and see how its done.

For your floors the cheapest way would to buy 20 bags so you get them a the wholesale rate. That would be plenty and leave you extra to make something else. If you don't use up all the bags just out the bags and let the darjit dry out. It will last for how ever long you need it to, all you have to do is put the dry Darjit in a bucket of water for a couple of days to reconstitute and mix.
Darjit is waterproof and is easier on your feet than concrete.

If you need to get more technical please call so I can explain more over the phone

707-349-3331 I'm located in Northern California. www.darjit.net or darjit.net

Thank you,

Jennifer

chitaj <chita.jing@gmail.com> wrote:

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, jennifer McGee <darjitqueen@...>
wrote:
>
> I manufacture Darjit in Northern California. Anyone can pick up if
they like, rather than paying for the shipping (9.60 per bag) 7484
adobe Creek Rd. Kelseyville, CA. 95451. If you purchase 20 bags or
more the cost is $10 per bag. 1 bag will make about 3-4 five gallon
buckets full. For more information you can visit the website
www.darjit.net.
> Jennifer

About Darjit - how easy is it to make a viable kitchen counter? From
the "fountain" application, I surmise it's waterproof and all that. Is
it reasonably economical? What about coloration and upkeep long term?
Do you treat it like concrete? Is it a moldable material if I cast it
1.5" thick? How heavy is it per board foot (a square 12"x12"x1" thick)?

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[papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, jennifer McGee <darjitqueen@...>
wrote:
>
> I manufacture Darjit in Northern California. Anyone can pick up if
they like, rather than paying for the shipping (9.60 per bag) 7484
adobe Creek Rd. Kelseyville, CA. 95451. If you purchase 20 bags or
more the cost is $10 per bag. 1 bag will make about 3-4 five gallon
buckets full. For more information you can visit the website
www.darjit.net.

> Jennifer

About Darjit - how easy is it to make a viable kitchen counter? From
the "fountain" application, I surmise it's waterproof and all that. Is
it reasonably economical? What about coloration and upkeep long term?
Do you treat it like concrete? Is it a moldable material if I cast it
1.5" thick? How heavy is it per board foot (a square 12"x12"x1" thick)?

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Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

I manufacture Darjit in Northern California. Anyone can pick up if they like, rather than paying for the shipping (9.60 per bag) 7484 adobe Creek Rd. Kelseyville, CA. 95451. If you purchase 20 bags or more the cost is $10 per bag. 1 bag will make about 3-4 five gallon buckets full. For more information you can visit the website www.darjit.net.

Jennifer

Ernie Phelps <eepjr24@gmail.com> wrote:

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, jennifer McGee <darjitqueen@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm not an expert in papercrete but, I put papercrete in my home as
an insulation layer for my radiant floor. (First an 11/2" papercrete,
then the tubing and mesh goes down, then I plan on putting 11/2"
inches of Darjit to finish the floor) Right now I just have the
papercrete and I find it dusts all the time and scratches very easy. I
don't think it would work for a garage floor because it wouldn't be
able to support a lot of weight. Darjit would be strong and would work
great and it's made from recycled material. There is an example of a
floor on the architectural page of www.darjit.net.
> Hope this helped,
> Jennifer

FYI, as far as I can tell, Darjit is simply a different recipe of
papercrete. We have folks here who use rock dust and clay in different
combinations in their recipes. And papercrete could easily be defined
as a composite material made up of paper, water, aggregates and
binders. The binders can be clay, cement, lime, etc. The aggregates
can be sand, rock dust (if quartz, then simply smaller grains of
sand), perlite, vermiculite, etc.

So you could accomplish the goal of having a PC floor by simply
increasing the binders and aggregates. A "rich" PC with 50 percent
concrete, 15 percent clay and 10 percent rock dust would probably do
the trick.

Obviously, YMMV and it definitely depends on what materials you have
near you and at what cost. If Darjit has to be shipped from overseas,
there is both a economic as well as a environmental cost associated to
that.

- Ernie

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

[papercreters] Cardboard through a chipper for papercrete

Hi,
I am planning on building a garage using papercrete. I have access to
alot of currently trashed daily cardboard boxes. I was thinking that
if these were put through a chipper then they may be used to make
papercrete. Is this a correct assumption?

thanks in advance.
steve

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[papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, jennifer McGee <darjitqueen@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm not an expert in papercrete but, I put papercrete in my home as
an insulation layer for my radiant floor. (First an 11/2" papercrete,
then the tubing and mesh goes down, then I plan on putting 11/2"
inches of Darjit to finish the floor) Right now I just have the
papercrete and I find it dusts all the time and scratches very easy. I
don't think it would work for a garage floor because it wouldn't be
able to support a lot of weight. Darjit would be strong and would work
great and it's made from recycled material. There is an example of a
floor on the architectural page of www.darjit.net.
> Hope this helped,
> Jennifer

FYI, as far as I can tell, Darjit is simply a different recipe of
papercrete. We have folks here who use rock dust and clay in different
combinations in their recipes. And papercrete could easily be defined
as a composite material made up of paper, water, aggregates and
binders. The binders can be clay, cement, lime, etc. The aggregates
can be sand, rock dust (if quartz, then simply smaller grains of
sand), perlite, vermiculite, etc.

So you could accomplish the goal of having a PC floor by simply
increasing the binders and aggregates. A "rich" PC with 50 percent
concrete, 15 percent clay and 10 percent rock dust would probably do
the trick.

Obviously, YMMV and it definitely depends on what materials you have
near you and at what cost. If Darjit has to be shipped from overseas,
there is both a economic as well as a environmental cost associated to
that.

- Ernie

------------------------------------

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

I'm not an expert in papercrete but, I put papercrete in my home as an insulation layer for my radiant floor. (First an 11/2" papercrete, then the tubing and mesh goes down, then I plan on putting 11/2" inches of Darjit to finish the floor) Right now I just have the papercrete and I find it dusts all the time and scratches very easy. I don't think it would work for a garage floor because it wouldn't be able to support a lot of weight. Darjit would be strong and would work great and it's made from recycled material. There is an example of a floor on the architectural page of www.darjit.net.

Hope this helped,

Jennifer

ltsgorcn <ltsgorcn@yahoo.com> wrote:

I built a pole building last year and I can't afford to put in a
concrete floor. I was wondering if papercrete is strong enough for a
garage floor. Also what about a basement floor.

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Somewhere I'd gotten the impression you'd used ferrocement for the outer layer . . . Please keep us posted on how the paint holds up and any revelations you have regarding same.

How much shrinkage did you see in the poured papercrete as it dried? Was it significantly less than block shrinkage? How did you get the papercrete up in the peak of the entrance and the very top of the dome?

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:13 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

When I built my battery room dome the primary lessons I learned were:

1. Papercrete is a warm weather / dry weather sport. When doing thick walls get it all done during spring/summer/fall. I went into the winter and that greatly slowed down drying.

2. I did a thin layer of papercrete (one spray coat) both inside and outside the dome after pumping it full. I should have done 3 coats. Trowling only the final one. This would reduce cracking and give a much strong exterior/interior.

3. My lime wash I am still figuring out. Basically keep it thin when using the lime wash pool coat (1 part white portland / 1 part lime) as a slurry. The lime wash is probably best applied with a roller which leaves a thin coat. Otherwise cracking is common.

4. build a rebar ladder into the dome to make getting on top easier. It was a hassle to drag scaffolding around.

Things that worked well on the dome were:

1. welding rebar is fast, and reasonably strong - one person job

2. a pneumatic hog ring gun was critical to getting a dome up fast, we were hanging 14 sheets of diamond lath a day with the gun. Only four sheets without.

3. the trash pump worked out, took me a while to get a 9HP motor pump. I'm skeptical of smaller pumps.

4. spraying has been great, vertical sprayer and side style tirolessas were both utilized.

5. starting small with a 10' diameter dome was nice. We didn't make any BIG mistakes on our first go around.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:59 AM, ElfNori wrote:

<nods>

What significant things did you learn building your dome? If you were going to do it again, what would you do differently?

I ask because what you did is close to what I want to do . . .

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Drapped cloth or forms might have brought the costs down a lot. If one person can do the work alone that is where the real savings is. As soon as two people are needed all savings are lost.

I currently just build everything from rebar, add remesh, then lath and can do it all on my own. That has been a tremendous savings despite the materials being a bit more expensive.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:46 AM, ElfNori wrote:

Mikey, what would the expense have been if you'd drapped netting and sprayed or used forms to pour or . . . ?

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

When I built my battery room dome the primary lessons I learned were:

1. Papercrete is a warm weather / dry weather sport. When doing thick walls get it all done during spring/summer/fall. I went into the winter and that greatly slowed down drying.

2. I did a thin layer of papercrete (one spray coat) both inside and outside the dome after pumping it full. I should have done 3 coats. Trowling only the final one. This would reduce cracking and give a much strong exterior/interior.

3. My lime wash I am still figuring out. Basically keep it thin when using the lime wash pool coat (1 part white portland / 1 part lime) as a slurry. The lime wash is probably best applied with a roller which leaves a thin coat. Otherwise cracking is common.

4. build a rebar ladder into the dome to make getting on top easier. It was a hassle to drag scaffolding around.

Things that worked well on the dome were:

1. welding rebar is fast, and reasonably strong - one person job

2. a pneumatic hog ring gun was critical to getting a dome up fast, we were hanging 14 sheets of diamond lath a day with the gun. Only four sheets without.

3. the trash pump worked out, took me a while to get a 9HP motor pump. I'm skeptical of smaller pumps.

4. spraying has been great, vertical sprayer and side style tirolessas were both utilized.

5. starting small with a 10' diameter dome was nice. We didn't make any BIG mistakes on our first go around.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:59 AM, ElfNori wrote:

<nods>

What significant things did you learn building your dome? If you were going to do it again, what would you do differently?

I ask because what you did is close to what I want to do . . .

ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Mikey Sklar
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Drapped cloth or forms might have brought the costs down a lot. If one person can do the work alone that is where the real savings is. As soon as two people are needed all savings are lost.

I currently just build everything from rebar, add remesh, then lath and can do it all on my own. That has been a tremendous savings despite the materials being a bit more expensive.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:46 AM, ElfNori wrote:

Mikey, what would the expense have been if you'd drapped netting and sprayed or used forms to pour or . . . ?

ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Mikey Sklar
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey
http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey
http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

<nods>

What significant things did you learn building your dome? If you were going to do it again, what would you do differently?

I ask because what you did is close to what I want to do . . .

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Drapped cloth or forms might have brought the costs down a lot. If one person can do the work alone that is where the real savings is. As soon as two people are needed all savings are lost.

I currently just build everything from rebar, add remesh, then lath and can do it all on my own. That has been a tremendous savings despite the materials being a bit more expensive.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:46 AM, ElfNori wrote:

Mikey, what would the expense have been if you'd drapped netting and sprayed or used forms to pour or . . . ?

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Drapped cloth or forms might have brought the costs down a lot. If one person can do the work alone that is where the real savings is. As soon as two people are needed all savings are lost.

I currently just build everything from rebar, add remesh, then lath and can do it all on my own. That has been a tremendous savings despite the materials being a bit more expensive.

On May 27, 2008, at 11:46 AM, ElfNori wrote:

Mikey, what would the expense have been if you'd drapped netting and sprayed or used forms to pour or . . . ?

ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Mikey Sklar
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey
http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Mikey, what would the expense have been if you'd drapped netting and sprayed or used forms to pour or . . . ?

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Mikey Sklar

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008 1:25 PM

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Yes, my 300' fence cost me just under $10,000 so about $33 a running foot to build from papercrete panels. $5,000 was spent on labor. The other $5,000 was lag screws, self tapping screws, rail ties, framing studs, portland cement, and concrete.

-Mikey

http://blog.holyscraphotsprings.com

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

[papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Mikey,

Do I understand you correctly that your 300' fence at $30/foot cost
$9000 to construct?

> I did a 300' fence using these panels - never again :). I traded my
> extras rest for a broken golf cart. Total cost of materials and labor
> was about $30 a running foot. Would have been a lot cheaper to do
> slip form, block, spray, or pump.
>

------------------------------------

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Monday, May 26, 2008

[papercreters] Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

I built a pole building last year and I can't afford to put in a
concrete floor. I was wondering if papercrete is strong enough for a
garage floor. Also what about a basement floor.

------------------------------------

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Re: [papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

I know perlite comes in two forms and the ag version is worthless for my
purposes. I like the addition of perlite for a couple reasons . . . as I
understand it, the addition of perlite increases the compressive strength
AND increases the insulative value . . . what's not to like?!

My plan is to learn what I need to learn building the chicken house. Then
I'll visit the inspector and try and reason him into approving a permit to
rebuild the pump house using the technique I want to use on the house. If
that's successful, and he's suitably impressed, I'm hoping I can get a
permit for the house . . . experimental or otherwise. I'm thinking if I can
keep him involved in the process he'll have a better understanding of what
I'm doing and why. That should improve my chances . . .

Keep your fingers crossed . . .

If I can't get him to go along with me on the pump house I'll go with post
and beam and papercrete infill . . . ferrocement post and beam if I can go
that route.

ElfN

----- Original Message -----
From: "David-"The Hern"" <jerrydave1@sbcglobal.net>
To: <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

> Hi Nori, I dont think perlite is available in commercial form in a
> fibrous material.
>
> If it is only available in a granular form I am familiar with from
> horticulture, I doubt it would constitue a fibrous reinforcement.
>
> Adherence between the cement and ganules is not the same mechanism as
> embedding hi tensile strength fibers in the mix.
>
> OR I could be as full of it as the christmas goose with this
> analysis! :-)
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "ElfNori" <elf@...> wrote:
> >
> > Found it on a Colorado green building site.
> >
> > The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the
> installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of
> construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that
> any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material,
> design or method of construction shall be approved where the building
> official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies
> with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the
> material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at
> least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code.
> >
> > Whenever there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the
> provisions of this code, or evidence that a material or method does
> not conform to the requirements of this code, or in order to
> substantiate claims for alternative materials or methods, the
> building official shall have the authority to require tests as
> evidence of compliance to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction...
> >
> > I'm going to need the services of an engineer . . . does anyone
> know of a papercrete experienced engineer? I can use Chris Zweifel,
> but he's monolithic, ferrocement, not adobe or papercrete.
> >
> > ElfN
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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6:49 PM

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[papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

Hi Nori, I dont think perlite is available in commercial form in a
fibrous material.

If it is only available in a granular form I am familiar with from
horticulture, I doubt it would constitue a fibrous reinforcement.

Adherence between the cement and ganules is not the same mechanism as
embedding hi tensile strength fibers in the mix.

OR I could be as full of it as the christmas goose with this
analysis! :-)

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "ElfNori" <elf@...> wrote:
>
> Found it on a Colorado green building site.
>
> The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the
installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that
any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material,
design or method of construction shall be approved where the building
official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies
with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the
material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at
least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code.
>
> Whenever there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the
provisions of this code, or evidence that a material or method does
not conform to the requirements of this code, or in order to
substantiate claims for alternative materials or methods, the
building official shall have the authority to require tests as
evidence of compliance to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction...
>
> I'm going to need the services of an engineer . . . does anyone
know of a papercrete experienced engineer? I can use Chris Zweifel,
but he's monolithic, ferrocement, not adobe or papercrete.
>
> ElfN
>

------------------------------------

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<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/

<*> Your email settings:
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Sunday, May 25, 2008

[papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

If you make your bricks using perlite you can call them fiber
reinforced lightweight concrete - that is already approved within the
code- Clyde--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "ElfNori" <elf@...> wrote:
>
> Found it on a Colorado green building site.
>
> The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the
installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of
construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that
any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material,
design or method of construction shall be approved where the building
official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies
with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material,
method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the
equivalent of that prescribed in this code.
>
> Whenever there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the
provisions of this code, or evidence that a material or method does
not conform to the requirements of this code, or in order to
substantiate claims for alternative materials or methods, the building
official shall have the authority to require tests as evidence of
compliance to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction...
>
> I'm going to need the services of an engineer . . . does anyone know
of a papercrete experienced engineer? I can use Chris Zweifel, but
he's monolithic, ferrocement, not adobe or papercrete.
>
> ElfN
>

------------------------------------

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<*> Your email settings:
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Re: [papercreters] PAHS

Are you sure you're not confusing that with the 9' that heat travels in six months?

The Mueller's tubes are 4' down. The insulation is under the slab over the pipes and extends out to the sides sufficient to have a distance of 9' from the tube to the edge of the insulation. If you put your tubes down further, you will require less or no insulation.

Does that help?

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Boersema

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 1:23 PM

Subject: RE: [papercreters] PAHS

I thought I read in some of Don's stuff that the tubes needed to be about 8' I am hoping no more because my little compact backhoe is pretty much maxed out at 8'. I will need to insulate my runs to the house I think just because of the distance from my collectors in order to get the elevation.

Nick

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

RE: [papercreters] PAHS

I thought I read in some of Don’s stuff that the tubes needed to be about 8’ I am hoping no more because my little compact backhoe is pretty much maxed out at 8’. I will need to insulate my runs to the house I think just because of the distance from my collectors in order to get the elevation.

Nick

From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ElfNori
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 1:42 PM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] PAHS

My tubes will have to be at least 4' down if not more. I've got the elevation and the soil, so no worries there. If I go 4' down I need to insulate over the pipes. The deeper I go the less I need to insulate laterally. Don will have to be the final word on this. He isn't coming over to visit until we're a lot closer to building.

I'm using corrugated non-perforated pipe for my PAHS tubes. It gives more surface area to dissipate the heat.

I'll use at least two collectors which I'll build out of papercrete. The ones at Mica peak are concrete block, but papercrete will be far superior . . . acting as both thermal mass and insulation.

ElfN

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Boersema

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:32 AM

Subject: RE: [papercreters] PAH

I have been following Don’s webpage for quite some time it would be nice if he updated a bit more frequently. Depending on the depth the tubes go in the ground I may have enough elevation on my site to use only gravity. How deep are your tubes going in? Are you using 4” solid plastic tile?

Nick

From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ElfNori
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:29 PM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] PAH

I had the great fortune to meet Don Stephens (www.greenershelter.com), solar architect/engineer. He designed a brilliant passive annual heat storage system for Jerry and Marilyn Mueller's new home on Mica Peak in eastern Washington. I was privileged to see the system in use and look at Jerry's log of the temps at the various sensor points. Very illuminating. He'd been keeping track of the ground temperature since building began. At 4 years of running the system he was nearly at his thermal battery conditioning goal.

The Mica Peak (Mueller's) system uses a solar chimney, which I don't want, so we've worked out a different system that uses solar powered fans and loops that begin and end in the collector. The air is drawn through the ground loops (multiple loops per collector) very slowly to allow the heat to be absorbed into the ground. The fans will come on when the box temperature is X degrees higher than the ground temperature.

ElfN

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1465 - Release Date: 5/25/2008 1:22 PM

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

[papercreters] Ne'mind

Found it on a Colorado green building site.

The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code.

Whenever there is insufficient evidence of compliance with the provisions of this code, or evidence that a material or method does not conform to the requirements of this code, or in order to substantiate claims for alternative materials or methods, the building official shall have the authority to require tests as evidence of compliance to be made at no expense to the jurisdiction...

I'm going to need the services of an engineer . . . does anyone know of a papercrete experienced engineer? I can use Chris Zweifel, but he's monolithic, ferrocement, not adobe or papercrete.

ElfN

__._,_.___

__,_._,___

Papercreters

Friday, May 30, 2008

[papercreters] Re: Spacemans's PC Slab

[papercreters] Re: Cardboard through a chipper for papercrete

Thursday, May 29, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

[papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

[papercreters] Cardboard through a chipper for papercrete

[papercreters] Re: Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Re: [papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

[papercreters] Re: PC insulating board -mix question

Monday, May 26, 2008

[papercreters] Can a shop floor be made from papercrete

Re: [papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

[papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

Sunday, May 25, 2008

[papercreters] Re: Ne'mind

Re: [papercreters] PAHS

RE: [papercreters] PAHS

[papercreters] Ne'mind

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