Re: [papercreters] Updates please?

Encase your water tank in a couple of feet of papercrete and then it won't matter so much if you keep it hot 24/7. The online calculations I did say that with 12" of papercrete on my dome I only need 85 degree water in the floor if it is 9 degrees outside. That shouldn't be too hard to achieve, and the temperature isn't often anywhere near that low. It was below 20 maybe six or seven mornings so far this winter.

I had a heater all picked out and then noticed in the specs that it said don't use above 1,600' altitude. Since I live just above 4,000 I'm still looking. There are several on ebay that are in the $200-300 range, even with free shipping in the lower 48. I have to sit down and compare specs and make a decision tomorrow. I'm open to suggestions if anyone knows of a good deal. So far the ones I'm looking at say 85% efficient. It's too bad ebay doesn't have a compare button like so many of the online stores have. : )

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net

On 1/31/2011 12:58 PM, Greg House wrote:

Hey Spaceman,   I realize this is a little OT, but which tankless water heater did you pick for  your radiant heat system? I have a big 60gal propane tank unit that's heating my  house now, but I'm supplementing with the woodstove and am wondering if it makes  sense to keep all that water hot when it's only used part of the night.  Oh...let's see...on topic...I haven't done any papercrete yet. Keep thinking  about it, and am still interested, but I need to finish up some other work  first.   Thanks, Greg

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Re: [papercreters] Updates please?

Hey Spaceman,

I realize this is a little OT, but which tankless water heater did you pick for
your radiant heat system? I have a big 60gal propane tank unit that's heating my
house now, but I'm supplementing with the woodstove and am wondering if it makes
sense to keep all that water hot when it's only used part of the night.

Oh...let's see...on topic...I haven't done any papercrete yet. Keep thinking
about it, and am still interested, but I need to finish up some other work
first.

Thanks,
Greg

>From: Spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net>
>To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 5:16:33 PM
>Subject: Re: [papercreters] Updates please?
>
>
>I haven't mixed pc in quite a while other than a test batch with a barrel
>mixer that I'm improving. It was covered with ice this morning, a couple of

>inches thick. It did get down to ten degrees before dawn but it's in the
>mid-60's now.
>
>
>The small dome frame is about 1/2 covered with chicken wire and the rest of

>the wire is sitting waiting for tuits. I'm looking for a small 3-4 cubic
>foot concrete mixer that I'll use for door footings and several other
>projects. Harbor Freight has a nice one but by the time you pay the extra
>freight it's about $400. Home Depot has one with a plastic drum that looks
>too low to pour into a wheel barrow but might be ok for setting beside a low
>
>form. I looked on Craig's List and used ones were $800-1,000, way out of my

>budget. Ebay is worse. I recently mixed enough concrete by hand in a
>wheelbarrow to make a small slab, and I'd rather avoid doing that again.
>I've seen the videos showing mixing on a tarp, but people who have done it
>say it's not as easy as it looks in the videos and by the end of the day
>
>you're still beat.
>
>
>The small slab was for a shed containing the end of my hydronic tubes, a
>pump, and a water heater. At the moment it is a 50 gallon propane fired
>monster that was bought ten years ago but never installed. Within a week or

>two it will be replaced by a tankless and pilotless on-demand heater that
>will fire on water flow. The pump will be controlled by a thermostat in the

>dome and the radiant floor will finally be active. The planned solar
>collector and papercrete encased storage tank are back burner for now. This

>winter has been so warm here that the whole heating system has been low

>priority. On the warm days I'm even getting sourdough to rise.
>
>
>Meanwhile the cold days are being utilized to organize my dome. A new
>cabinet now hides what was a pile of power tools on the floor. The cooking
>area is about to get a new pantry. A few other little projects and then it
>should be turning into spring around here in a month or so. Then I'll be
>back to covering the small dome with wire and pc.
>
>
>spaceman All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice
>
>upon receipt of new information. http://Starship-Enterprises.Net
>On 1/28/2011 12:09 PM, JUDITH WILLIAMS wrote:
>I'm pet sitting and feeling a bit cabin feverish so am going through all
>old group emails that I have saved for various reasons. These go back
>about 2 or 3 years - whenever this group got started.
>>
>>Anyway, a lot of people wrote about interesting and exciting projects they
>>
>>were planning and starting. I would love to see some updates. How about
>>it?
>>
>>I haven't been doing any mixing in the cold weather but have managed to
>>get some windows installed and am trying to set up a small crew to help
>>with installing the doors. Wnen I get home next week I am going to get
>>started on my interior plaster. The walls came out pretty irregular (even
>
>>with the slip forming. I am learning the importance of getting those forms
>>
>>just right) so they need to be smoothed out with a papercrete plaster. If
>
>>I remember correctly I used a mix of 1/2 paper and water slurry and 1/2
>>clay soil. What I've done looks pretty good so far. One thing I'm
>>doing
>>
>>that seems to help is to make batches of papercrete without the cement -

>>just paper and water. I pour it into the block mold and let it dry. Then
>
>>when I want to make a batch of plaster I take some of the dry paper stuff,
>>
>>break it into a 5 gallon bucket, add water and clay soil and mix it with

>>thed rill and paddle mixer. This way I have it in small amounts and don't
>
>>feel the pressure of having to use up a huge amount of material. This is

>>just for the scratch and brown. The finish plaster will be something
>>smooth and lovely.
>>
>>So anyway to those who have projects going or have some finished ones I
>>would love to see what you have accomplished. Pretty soon we'll be back in
>>
>>the good weather and there will be less time for writing.
>>
>>They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>>safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
>>~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin
>>
>>Follow progress on the new project at
>>http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog
>>
>>More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith
>>
>>
>>
________________________________

>>No virus found in this message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date:
01/28/11
>

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Re: [papercreters] Re: sheetrock in mixer

That would be good for a mixer. The perfect rear end is the one that you have. Is it already dismounted?

The first mixer I made had a Ford Ranger under it, which lasted about eight years mixing off and on. That rear end got replaced a couple of years ago with a Toyota pickup. It's still in a no-tow configuration.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net

On 1/30/2011 1:27 PM, mojojoyce wrote:

Thanks spaceman. A friend just offered me a rear end of a suburban,is there any reason that would be too big for a mixer?  Mike      

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[papercreters] Re: sheetrock in mixer

Thanks spaceman. A friend just offered me a rear end of a suburban,is there any reason that would be too big for a mixer? Mike

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Re: [papercreters] sheetrock in mixer

Crumbled sheetrock will mix in a tow mixer. It doesn't add strength but does add mineral content. The gypsum in the sheetrock is hydrated so there is no chemical reaction. If you put the gypsum in a kiln and drove the water off then it would react with the cement in pc, though I'm not sure the reaction would be beneficial or worth the energy.

If you have a pile of sheetrock lying around then throwing it into the mix won't do any harm, and the gypsum filler means that much less pc to mix.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net

On 1/29/2011 7:05 PM, mojojoyce wrote:

Does sheet rock mix well enough in a tow mixer, and does it add anything to the pc mix? I am remodeling and plan to build a mixer in the spring. Mike in south Texas    

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[papercreters] sheetrock in mixer

Does sheet rock mix well enough in a tow mixer, and does it add anything to the pc mix? I am remodeling and plan to build a mixer in the spring. Mike in south Texas

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Re: [papercreters] Updates please?

I haven't mixed pc in quite a while other than a test batch with a barrel mixer that I'm improving. It was covered with ice this morning, a couple of inches thick. It did get down to ten degrees before dawn but it's in the mid-60's now.

The small dome frame is about 1/2 covered with chicken wire and the rest of the wire is sitting waiting for tuits. I'm looking for a small 3-4 cubic foot concrete mixer that I'll use for door footings and several other projects. Harbor Freight has a nice one but by the time you pay the extra freight it's about $400. Home Depot has one with a plastic drum that looks too low to pour into a wheel barrow but might be ok for setting beside a low form. I looked on Craig's List and used ones were $800-1,000, way out of my budget. Ebay is worse. I recently mixed enough concrete by hand in a wheelbarrow to make a small slab, and I'd rather avoid doing that again. I've seen the videos showing mixing on a tarp, but people who have done it say it's not as easy as it looks in the videos and by the end of the day you're still beat.

The small slab was for a shed containing the end of my hydronic tubes, a pump, and a water heater. At the moment it is a 50 gallon propane fired monster that was bought ten years ago but never installed. Within a week or two it will be replaced by a tankless and pilotless on-demand heater that will fire on water flow. The pump will be controlled by a thermostat in the dome and the radiant floor will finally be active. The planned solar collector and papercrete encased storage tank are back burner for now. This winter has been so warm here that the whole heating system has been low priority. On the warm days I'm even getting sourdough to rise.

Meanwhile the cold days are being utilized to organize my dome. A new cabinet now hides what was a pile of power tools on the floor. The cooking area is about to get a new pantry. A few other little projects and then it should be turning into spring around here in a month or so. Then I'll be back to covering the small dome with wire and pc.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net

On 1/28/2011 12:09 PM, JUDITH WILLIAMS wrote:

I'm pet sitting and feeling a bit cabin feverish so am going through all old group emails that I have saved for various reasons. These go back about 2 or 3 years - whenever this group got started.

Anyway, a lot of people wrote about interesting and exciting projects they were planning and starting. I would love to see some updates. How about it?

I haven't been doing any mixing in the cold weather but have managed to get some windows installed and am trying to set up a small crew to help with installing the doors. Wnen I get home next week I am going to get started on my interior plaster. The walls came out pretty irregular (even with the slip forming. I am learning the importance of getting those forms just right) so they need to be smoothed out with a papercrete plaster. If I remember correctly I used a mix of 1/2 paper and water slurry and 1/2 clay soil. What I've done looks pretty good so far. One thing I'm doing that seems to help is to make batches of papercrete without the cement - just paper and water. I pour it into the block mold  and let it dry. Then when I want to make a batch of plaster I take some of the dry paper stuff, break it into a 5 gallon bucket, add water and clay soil and mix it with thed rill and paddle mixer. This way I have it in small amounts and don't feel the pressure of having to use up a huge amount of material. This is just for the scratch and brown. The finish plaster will be something smooth and lovely.

So anyway to those who have projects going or have some finished ones I would love to see what you have accomplished. Pretty soon we'll be back in the good weather and there will be less time for writing.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin

Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

---

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[papercreters] Updates please?

I'm pet sitting and feeling a bit cabin feverish so am going through all old group emails that I have saved for various reasons. These go back about 2 or 3 years - whenever this group got started.

Anyway, a lot of people wrote about interesting and exciting projects they were planning and starting. I would love to see some updates. How about it?

I haven't been doing any mixing in the cold weather but have managed to get some windows installed and am trying to set up a small crew to help with installing the doors. Wnen I get home next week I am going to get started on my interior plaster. The walls came out pretty irregular (even with the slip forming. I am learning the importance of getting those forms just right) so they need to be smoothed out with a papercrete plaster. If I remember correctly I used a mix of 1/2 paper and water slurry and 1/2 clay soil. What I've done looks pretty good so far. One thing I'm doing that seems to help is to make batches of papercrete without the cement - just paper and water. I pour it into the block mold  and let it dry. Then when I want to make a batch of plaster I take some of the dry paper stuff, break it into a 5 gallon bucket, add water and clay soil and mix it with thed rill and paddle mixer. This way I have it in small amounts and don't feel the pressure of having to use up a huge amount of material. This is just for the scratch and brown. The finish plaster will be something smooth and lovely.

So anyway to those who have projects going or have some finished ones I would love to see what you have accomplished. Pretty soon we'll be back in the good weather and there will be less time for writing.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin

Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

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[papercreters] Re: my first posting

Boric acid is a stomach poison to some bugs. That is pure boric acid. It is also the active ingredient in many baits, but then it is only about 1/2% active ingredient. Either the insects that eat it or the ones that clean it off themselves die from stomach poisoning.

As a wood preservative it is formulated with propylene glycol and absorbed by capillary action through the wood. In this formulation, it is not a bait. Termites do not carry home boric acid treated wood and poison their colony. As applied, it is a repellent. The termites just stay away. I believe the cellulose fiber is similar. It prevents fungi and rodents as well in that application.

Ant baits are different than termite baits. There are many baits on the market which use other pesticides. A bait is carried home and shared with the rest of the colony. Termite baits are not boric acid (at least not while I was exterminating). Termite baits rely on the product being carried back to the colony and shared. Boric acid doesn't seem to work that way with the termites.

Since cellulose fiber insulation is not usually in the part of the structure which the termites attack (like the foundation base plate), and that it professes no mold or fungi or mice, I suspect the concentration is about 1/2% by weight. So 100 pounds of cellulose fiber insulation may contain about 5 pounds of boric acid.

Since papercrete is pulverized cellulose, I don't think the polyethylene glycol would be needed. I also do not know if the alkalai action of the cement has any impact on the boric acid. I suppose the truth would take some testing to confirm.
Gary

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Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

How I understood this boric acid isn't a repellent, the bugs eat it,
carry it to their nests where it rubs off on others, and it kills the
bugs by eating away at them on the surface and internally where they
have digested it.

So you would still have bug problems, only the populations would be
smaller.

If this is incorrect, by all means, correct me.

Brian

On Sun, 2011-01-23 at 21:17 +0000, Gary Olsen wrote:
> Having been an exterminator in CO for a couple decades, I have an understanding of the risk of using papercrete without consideration that the termites are God's answer to cellulose.
>
> Now, cement is alkalai, but as you mentioned, this may not be enough to prevent the problem of them eating something made of papercrete. Still, I would expect deterioration to take longer than 3 months.
>
> One possibility to combat the termite problem would be to add a small amount of boric acid to the mix rather than tampering with the recipe contents of cement, water, and paper. Cellulose insulation has a small amount of boric acid added. It is quite similar to papercrete, so at least some level of success has been achieved using it on termite food.
>
> The amount needed is a relevant question. There has to be an MSDS for cellulose insulation which would indicate the weight (by %) of Boric Acid contained. My own experience with boric acid as a pesticide and wood destroying organism repellant created my guess to be quite low in volume compared to the other ingredients.
>
> If I lived in termite heaven, as your posting suggests you do, I would try several different mixes and place blocks on the ground to see how the termites react. That is how they measure the performance of all termiticides, so it would probably work well to test on papercrete.
> Gary
>

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[papercreters] magnesium oxide and paper crete

While following out some of the alternative building materials I came across this link. It seems Magnesium based cement is much more healthful to living organisms, (like people and animals), Has any one thought of trying it with paper crete?

I was telling my sister about it and she suggested I get a chemistry degree. I would think though that modern chemistry would maybe not even touch on this unless you did some real digging.

geoswan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/MgO-GENERAL.pdf

Joy in OK

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Are the egg shells getting harder to break?  J

 

Nick

 

---

From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JUDITH WILLIAMS
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:10 PM
To: papercreters papercreters
Subject: [papercreters] Chickens

 

 

I can't stop my chickens from eating my papercrete blocks. Not the ones I am using to build with but some odd ones I used as landscape walls and such. They seem to be suffering no ill effects and are laying well. So should I worry?

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin

Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

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[papercreters] Re: chickens

 They will eat styrafoam too. It is like they are obsessed with it.  And I know it is not good for them. I have heard it will plug them up. I see them pecking at it from time to time and remove it. Don't know as I have ever lost one or anything, but have read that it is particularly bad for them. Styrafoam that is. Joy in OK

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Re: [papercreters] Chickens

Cement becomes pretty much inert after a while. Most of its toxicity is related to alkalinity unless you breath it. "Toxic effects noted in animals include, for acute exposures, alveolar damage
with pulmonary edema" if they eat the raw cement but yours is already hydrated in the papercrete.

Birds eat rocks to grind the food in their gizzards so they would be absorbing some amount of minerals naturally anyway. Calcium, one of the main components in cement, is what egg shells are made of. The papercrete I have inadvertently tasted has always been salty - how do your eggs taste?

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net

On 1/23/2011 2:09 PM, JUDITH WILLIAMS wrote:

I can't stop my chickens from eating my papercrete blocks. Not the ones I am using to build with but some odd ones I used as landscape walls and such. They seem to be suffering no ill effects and are laying well. So should I worry?

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin

Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

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[papercreters] Re: my first posting

Having been an exterminator in CO for a couple decades, I have an understanding of the risk of using papercrete without consideration that the termites are God's answer to cellulose.

Now, cement is alkalai, but as you mentioned, this may not be enough to prevent the problem of them eating something made of papercrete. Still, I would expect deterioration to take longer than 3 months.

One possibility to combat the termite problem would be to add a small amount of boric acid to the mix rather than tampering with the recipe contents of cement, water, and paper. Cellulose insulation has a small amount of boric acid added. It is quite similar to papercrete, so at least some level of success has been achieved using it on termite food.

The amount needed is a relevant question. There has to be an MSDS for cellulose insulation which would indicate the weight (by %) of Boric Acid contained. My own experience with boric acid as a pesticide and wood destroying organism repellant created my guess to be quite low in volume compared to the other ingredients.

If I lived in termite heaven, as your posting suggests you do, I would try several different mixes and place blocks on the ground to see how the termites react. That is how they measure the performance of all termiticides, so it would probably work well to test on papercrete.
Gary

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[papercreters] Chickens

I can't stop my chickens from eating my papercrete blocks. Not the ones I am using to build with but some odd ones I used as landscape walls and such. They seem to be suffering no ill effects and are laying well. So should I worry?

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin

Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

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Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

hey, thats true, one could easily go papercrete mad-hard to find peeps
that are obsessed with mud and slurries at th supermarket, tell u wot!

On 1/23/11, Ron Richter <ronerichter@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Josephine,
> On the bottom of most posts to this forum is a link to Photos.  This the
> real "learning area" as far as I'm concerned, especially if a picture is
> worth a thousand words.  One of our members, Bob the Builder, has posted
> some really explicit photos of his experiments with Papercrete (PC) as far
> as sidewalks are concerned.  I believe he used adobe (mud) in some instead
> of (or in addition to) portland cement like many of the rest of us use.  He
> will jump in here and explain it I'm sure.
>
> Anyway here is a direct link to his sidewalk "stones" and then you could
> look at all the other cool pictures as well.
>
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/list
>
> CAUTION: Visiting this site of pictures may steal your life from you!  Your
> time may not be your own and all your friends may think you've suddenly
> changed nationalities with this new language you speak.
>
> Have fun.
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ben
>
> Thankyou for your
> reply
> I dont know if I was expecting
> anything...but that was great. If you have a pic of the sidewalk for me that
> would be wonderful..
>
> Josephine
>
> We had some extra papercrete and put it on the ground as a
> sidewalk. Amazingly, it has held up even though: 1) it is directly on dirt
> with no provisions for drainage; 2) we are NY, a more humid climate than
> some;
> and 3) it is under trees. I am not sure it stays truly hard, but it has
> not
> disintegrated.
>
> I will try to attach a pix "Papercrete Sidewalk" to
> this. Just as an aside, the irregular appearance of our little test house
> is
> because we were trying different finishin coats.
>
> Ben Viglietta
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com,
> "Josephine" <josephine15@...> wrote:
>>
>> Judith
>>
>
>> This is my very first message.
>>
>> I am fascinated with
> Papercrete and want to know if you can apply it directly to the ground to
> make
> slabs to walk on or to have under a patio or make a path with it. This
> would
> save a lot of time leveling the ground etc.
>>
>> And do you think
> Papercrete would be suitable for this application in all environments
> ...like
> rain and hot sun that we have here in Australia?
>>
>> Cant wait to
> hear your reply
>>
>> Many thanks
>> Josephine
>>
> Australia
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: JUDITH WILLIAMS
>
>>
>> I agree with Spaceman that the simple form of
> papercrete should be all that is needed. However, if you have something
> lying
> around that you would throw away anyway you could consider putting it in
> the
> mix. I ended up with thousands of woven polypropylene bags a few years
> ago.
> When I tried to fill one to use as an earthbag I discovered that they had
> deteriorated and are not strong enough. So I'm thinking of using some of
> them
> as an underlayment for a papercrete floor or just cutting them up and
> throwing
> then in the mixer. I know I am tired of moving them every time in neaten
> up. I
> haven't deviated much from the original "recipe" but I think anything that
> has
> fibers would be fine in a mix. They must be kept short though or they will
> tangle around the blade.
>>
>> They who can give up essential
> liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor
> safety.
>> ~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin
> Franklin
>>
>
>> To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
>>
> From: Spaceman@...
>>
>>
>> For
> what purpose? Papercrete is fine for building just the way it is, plenty
> of
> compression strength. I don't think anyone wants to build a bank vault
> with
> it. IMHO if you are looking for a material with high tensile strength, you
> want something other than papercrete. My experience with putting metal
> into
> papercrete is that the pc shrinks away from the metal leaving it rattling
> around in a void. I don't have a source of cuttings to try in a batch, but
> since you do, how about doing some tests and posting the results?
>>
>
>> Rope would add some nice fibers, would probably need to be cut into
> short pieces and then shredded so that the fibers can mix with the paper.
> Just
> throwing rope into a mix won't work too well. Again, why would you want to
> do
> this since pc works great without it? It seems to be a lot of extra work
> for
> possibly a marginal improvement.
>>
>>
>> spacemanAll
> opinions expressed or impliedare subject to change without noticeupon
> receipt
> of new information.http://Starship-Enterprises.Net
>>
> On 1/14/2011 4:52 AM, derk wrote:
>> The reason i ask is i watched a tv
> programme about safe bank vault building and in the concreting process
> they
> use stainless steel cuttings which make the finished concrete slab
> amazingly
> strong in both compression and tensile situations. For papercrete i
> imagine
> you need a scrap product that would adhere readily to it. IF you used old
> rope
> how long would the strand of rope have to be , when in the process would
> you
> add them to the papercrete mix , how else would adding rope effect the
> other
> qualities of the finished product... derk
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------

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Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

Trevor

 

Thankyou for your reply...I think

 

Josephine

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Trevor

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:18 AM

Subject: RE: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 

Hi Josephine,

Unless you're from Tassie, I reckon a papercrete path on the ground would last about a month because of the termites, unless you put enough cement in it to turn it into concrete, which kind of defeats the purpose.  They'd eat the damp underside.

I realise to people in the US papercrete is said to be insect proof but Australian termites are something else, they can and do sometimes chew through mortar (and bad concrete) to get at wood!  It's a real issue on mainland Australia, if you were to build a house with rubble foundations and papercrete walls you'd have to make the roof framing from steel or treated timber as the termites would tunnel up to get at the untreated timber.  They love anything with cellulose in it.

Trev

From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josephine
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2011 11:43 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 



Ben

Thankyou so much for your information.

I will go to the site now ...can't wait to have a look.

I wasnt sure if anyone was getting my emails or even caring about them as I am from Australia.

Thankyou so much

Josephine

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Richter

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:30 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 

Hi Josephine, On the bottom of most posts to this forum is a link to Photos.  This the real "learning area" as far as I'm concerned, especially if a picture is worth a thousand words.  One of our members, Bob the Builder, has posted some really explicit photos of his experiments with Papercrete (PC) as far as sidewalks are concerned.  I believe he used adobe (mud) in some instead of (or in addition to) portland cement like many of the rest of us use.  He will jump in here and explain it I'm sure. Anyway here is a direct link to his sidewalk "stones" and then you could look at all the other cool pictures as well.  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/list CAUTION: Visiting this site of pictures may steal your life from you!  Your time may not be your own and all your friends may think you've suddenly changed nationalities with this new language you speak. Have fun. Ron   Hi Ben Thankyou for your reply I dont know if I was expecting anything...but that was great. If you have a pic of the sidewalk for me that would be wonderful.. Josephine We had some extra papercrete and put it on the ground as a sidewalk. Amazingly, it has held up even though: 1) it is directly on dirt with no provisions for drainage; 2) we are NY, a more humid climate than some; and 3) it is under trees. I am not sure it stays truly hard, but it has not disintegrated. I will try to attach a pix "Papercrete Sidewalk" to this. Just as an aside, the irregular appearance of our little test house is because we were trying different finishin coats. Ben Viglietta --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine" <josephine15@...> wrote: > > Judith > > This is my very first message. > > I am fascinated with Papercrete and want to know if you can apply it directly to the ground to make slabs to walk on or to have under a patio or make a path with it. This would save a lot of time leveling the ground etc. > > And do you think Papercrete would be suitable for this application in all environments ...like rain and hot sun that we have here in Australia? > > Cant wait to hear your reply > > Many thanks > Josephine > Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JUDITH WILLIAMS > > I agree with Spaceman that the simple form of papercrete should be all that is needed. However, if you have something lying around that you would throw away anyway you could consider putting it in the mix. I ended up with thousands of woven polypropylene bags a few years ago. When I tried to fill one to use as an earthbag I discovered that they had deteriorated and are not strong enough. So I'm thinking of using some of them as an underlayment for a papercrete floor or just cutting them up and throwing then in the mixer. I know I am tired of moving them every time in neaten up. I haven't deviated much from the original "recipe" but I think anything that has fibers would be fine in a mix. They must be kept short though or they will tangle around the blade. > > They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. > ~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin > > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com > From: Spaceman@... > > > For what purpose? Papercrete is fine for building just the way it is, plenty of compression strength. I don't think anyone wants to build a bank vault with it. IMHO if you are looking for a material with high tensile strength, you want something other than papercrete. My experience with putting metal into papercrete is that the pc shrinks away from the metal leaving it rattling around in a void. I don't have a source of cuttings to try in a batch, but since you do, how about doing some tests and posting the results? > > Rope would add some nice fibers, would probably need to be cut into short pieces and then shredded so that the fibers can mix with the paper. Just throwing rope into a mix won't work too well. Again, why would you want to do this since pc works great without it? It seems to be a lot of extra work for possibly a marginal improvement. > > > spacemanAll opinions expressed or impliedare subject to change without noticeupon receipt of new information.http://Starship-Enterprises.Net > On 1/14/2011 4:52 AM, derk wrote: > The reason i ask is i watched a tv programme about safe bank vault building and in the concreting process they use stainless steel cuttings which make the finished concrete slab amazingly strong in both compression and tensile situations. For papercrete i imagine you need a scrap product that would adhere readily to it. IF you used old rope how long would the strand of rope have to be , when in the process would you add them to the papercrete mix , how else would adding rope effect the other qualities of the finished product... derk >

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Hi Josephine,

 

Unless you're from Tassie, I reckon a papercrete path on the ground would last about a month because of the termites, unless you put enough cement in it to turn it into concrete, which kind of defeats the purpose.  They'd eat the damp underside.

 

I realise to people in the US papercrete is said to be insect proof but Australian termites are something else, they can and do sometimes chew through mortar (and bad concrete) to get at wood!  It's a real issue on mainland Australia, if you were to build a house with rubble foundations and papercrete walls you'd have to make the roof framing from steel or treated timber as the termites would tunnel up to get at the untreated timber.  They love anything with cellulose in it.

 

Trev

 

From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Josephine
Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2011 11:43 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 

 



Ben

 

Thankyou so much for your information.

 

I will go to the site now ...can't wait to have a look.

 

I wasnt sure if anyone was getting my emails or even caring about them as I am from Australia.

 

Thankyou so much

 

Josephine

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Richter

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:30 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 

 

Hi Josephine, On the bottom of most posts to this forum is a link to Photos.  This the real "learning area" as far as I'm concerned, especially if a picture is worth a thousand words.  One of our members, Bob the Builder, has posted some really explicit photos of his experiments with Papercrete (PC) as far as sidewalks are concerned.  I believe he used adobe (mud) in some instead of (or in addition to) portland cement like many of the rest of us use.  He will jump in here and explain it I'm sure. Anyway here is a direct link to his sidewalk "stones" and then you could look at all the other cool pictures as well.  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/list CAUTION: Visiting this site of pictures may steal your life from you!  Your time may not be your own and all your friends may think you've suddenly changed nationalities with this new language you speak. Have fun. Ron     Hi Ben   Thankyou for your reply I dont know if I was expecting anything...but that was great. If you have a pic of the sidewalk for me that would be wonderful..   Josephine     We had some extra papercrete and put it on the ground as a sidewalk. Amazingly, it has held up even though: 1) it is directly on dirt with no provisions for drainage; 2) we are NY, a more humid climate than some; and 3) it is under trees. I am not sure it stays truly hard, but it has not disintegrated. I will try to attach a pix "Papercrete Sidewalk" to this. Just as an aside, the irregular appearance of our little test house is because we were trying different finishin coats. Ben Viglietta --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine" <josephine15@...> wrote: > > Judith > > This is my very first message. > > I am fascinated with Papercrete and want to know if you can apply it directly to the ground to make slabs to walk on or to have under a patio or make a path with it. This would save a lot of time leveling the ground etc. > > And do you think Papercrete would be suitable for this application in all environments ...like rain and hot sun that we have here in Australia? > > Cant wait to hear your reply > > Many thanks > Josephine > Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JUDITH WILLIAMS > > I agree with Spaceman that the simple form of papercrete should be all that is needed. However, if you have something lying around that you would throw away anyway you could consider putting it in the mix. I ended up with thousands of woven polypropylene bags a few years ago. When I tried to fill one to use as an earthbag I discovered that they had deteriorated and are not strong enough. So I'm thinking of using some of them as an underlayment for a papercrete floor or just cutting them up and throwing then in the mixer. I know I am tired of moving them every time in neaten up. I haven't deviated much from the original "recipe" but I think anything that has fibers would be fine in a mix. They must be kept short though or they will tangle around the blade. > > They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. > ~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin > > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com > From: Spaceman@... > > > For what purpose? Papercrete is fine for building just the way it is, plenty of compression strength. I don't think anyone wants to build a bank vault with it. IMHO if you are looking for a material with high tensile strength, you want something other than papercrete. My experience with putting metal into papercrete is that the pc shrinks away from the metal leaving it rattling around in a void. I don't have a source of cuttings to try in a batch, but since you do, how about doing some tests and posting the results? > > Rope would add some nice fibers, would probably need to be cut into short pieces and then shredded so that the fibers can mix with the paper. Just throwing rope into a mix won't work too well. Again, why would you want to do this since pc works great without it? It seems to be a lot of extra work for possibly a marginal improvement. > > > spacemanAll opinions expressed or impliedare subject to change without noticeupon receipt of new information.http://Starship-Enterprises.Net > On 1/14/2011 4:52 AM, derk wrote: > The reason i ask is i watched a tv programme about safe bank vault building and in the concreting process they use stainless steel cuttings which make the finished concrete slab amazingly strong in both compression and tensile situations. For papercrete i imagine you need a scrap product that would adhere readily to it. IF you used old rope how long would the strand of rope have to be , when in the process would you add them to the papercrete mix , how else would adding rope effect the other qualities of the finished product... derk >

 

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Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

Ben

 

Thankyou so much for your information.

 

I will go to the site now ...can't wait to have a look.

 

I wasnt sure if anyone was getting my emails or even caring about them as I am from Australia.

 

Thankyou so much

 

Josephine

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Richter

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:30 AM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: my first posting

 

Hi Josephine, On the bottom of most posts to this forum is a link to Photos.  This the real "learning area" as far as I'm concerned, especially if a picture is worth a thousand words.  One of our members, Bob the Builder, has posted some really explicit photos of his experiments with Papercrete (PC) as far as sidewalks are concerned.  I believe he used adobe (mud) in some instead of (or in addition to) portland cement like many of the rest of us use.  He will jump in here and explain it I'm sure. Anyway here is a direct link to his sidewalk "stones" and then you could look at all the other cool pictures as well.  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/list CAUTION: Visiting this site of pictures may steal your life from you!  Your time may not be your own and all your friends may think you've suddenly changed nationalities with this new language you speak. Have fun. Ron   Hi Ben   Thankyou for your reply I dont know if I was expecting anything...but that was great. If you have a pic of the sidewalk for me that would be wonderful..   Josephine We had some extra papercrete and put it on the ground as a sidewalk. Amazingly, it has held up even though: 1) it is directly on dirt with no provisions for drainage; 2) we are NY, a more humid climate than some; and 3) it is under trees. I am not sure it stays truly hard, but it has not disintegrated. I will try to attach a pix "Papercrete Sidewalk" to this. Just as an aside, the irregular appearance of our little test house is because we were trying different finishin coats. Ben Viglietta --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine" <josephine15@...> wrote: > > Judith > > This is my very first message. > > I am fascinated with Papercrete and want to know if you can apply it directly to the ground to make slabs to walk on or to have under a patio or make a path with it. This would save a lot of time leveling the ground etc. > > And do you think Papercrete would be suitable for this application in all environments ...like rain and hot sun that we have here in Australia? > > Cant wait to hear your reply > > Many thanks > Josephine > Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JUDITH WILLIAMS > > I agree with Spaceman that the simple form of papercrete should be all that is needed. However, if you have something lying around that you would throw away anyway you could consider putting it in the mix. I ended up with thousands of woven polypropylene bags a few years ago. When I tried to fill one to use as an earthbag I discovered that they had deteriorated and are not strong enough. So I'm thinking of using some of them as an underlayment for a papercrete floor or just cutting them up and throwing then in the mixer. I know I am tired of moving them every time in neaten up. I haven't deviated much from the original "recipe" but I think anything that has fibers would be fine in a mix. They must be kept short though or they will tangle around the blade. > > They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. > ~ in Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin > > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com > From: Spaceman@... > > > For what purpose? Papercrete is fine for building just the way it is, plenty of compression strength. I don't think anyone wants to build a bank vault with it. IMHO if you are looking for a material with high tensile strength, you want something other than papercrete. My experience with putting metal into papercrete is that the pc shrinks away from the metal leaving it rattling around in a void. I don't have a source of cuttings to try in a batch, but since you do, how about doing some tests and posting the results? > > Rope would add some nice fibers, would probably need to be cut into short pieces and then shredded so that the fibers can mix with the paper. Just throwing rope into a mix won't work too well. Again, why would you want to do this since pc works great without it? It seems to be a lot of extra work for possibly a marginal improvement. > > > spacemanAll opinions expressed or impliedare subject to change without noticeupon receipt of new information.http://Starship-Enterprises.Net > On 1/14/2011 4:52 AM, derk wrote: > The reason i ask is i watched a tv programme about safe bank vault building and in the concreting process they use stainless steel cuttings which make the finished concrete slab amazingly strong in both compression and tensile situations. For papercrete i imagine you need a scrap product that would adhere readily to it. IF you used old rope how long would the strand of rope have to be , when in the process would you add them to the papercrete mix , how else would adding rope effect the other qualities of the finished product... derk >

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