Saturday, February 28, 2009

RE: [papercreters] UG Dome

OK, I am in agreement that mold can be a big problem with earth tubes.  Just how effective would be a combination of swabing with say a bleach solution and an ozone treatment?  There are no free lunchs, but we can evolve into a pretty ecologically sound alternative
Thanks
Bert

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Nick Boersema <picknick@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Nick Boersema <picknick@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: [papercreters] UG Dome
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 6:31 PM

I would recommend any one thinking of earth tubes to look at Don Stephens work http://www.greeners helter.org

He has a lot of theory on his page and some really good updates on the old technologies of the Seventies.  I do wish he would update his site more frequently with new data form his customers that have been using his ideas for more than five years.

 

Nick

 


From: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Greg House
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:41 AM
To: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

 

Spaceman wrote:

> I'll run a few earth tubes for the air intake so I stay at ambient more or less.

Do you have any experience with earth tubes? I've found a lot of contradictory information about their effectiveness and am wondering if it's really a viable technology or not. It -seems- like it'd be workable, but nobody seems to have information about how deep they need to be, how long, etc.

I found one website that had all these intense calculations about airflow, ground temps, etc which sounded very positive...but then they went to say they'd never actually BUILT one. Great, that's real helpful. Other sites say the ground around the tubes gets heat saturated and they stop functioning after awhile. So I'm confused. This is something I think I'd like to use, but it's a lot of work and money for all that excavation if it doesn't function.

Greg



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[papercreters] Re: Closed cell spray foam

Closed cell foam is very expensive. That's why I would fit together
pieces of junk styrofoam to make up the vast majority of the shell,
filling in the gaps with closed cell foam (spray or from cans). If
you're relatively patient you could make a very thick, very high "R
value" insulation layer, using only a small amount of purchased
material. I have been doing some experiments with this method and will
post the results soon.

Dave

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Janoahsh" <janoahsh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave, I have heard of closed cell urethanes, but at roughly 4
times the
> density of open cell urethanes it becomes cost prohibitive for a tight
> budget. As it is, open cell urethane foam is about the most
expensive foam
> available. It is certainly useful for compound shapes, and about the
> highest insulation value. The draw backs are toxicity and cost.
Open cell
> will absorb moisture and become nearly useless as demonstrated in colder
> climates like Fairbanks. This might be a good solution on the
outside of a
> concrete buried dome if one can afford it, but I wouldn't use it
anyplace
> there was a possibility of fire or breathable out gassing.
>
> Janosh


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RE: [papercreters] Earth Tubes

Spaceman I think the guy who is slicing the tube has the right idea.  I have done a bit of work with the corrugated plastic drainage tube with the slits.  They are designed to take moisture in not to let it out.  Therefore you will get small puddles of condensate at the bottom of every ridge perfect little breeding grounds.  You cannot guaranty that there will be a slit at the bottom at all times and it will need to be at the very bottom.  If the air flowing through the tube is dry enough to not condense than the air entering your home will be so dry you will need to add humidifiers to your home.  Molds are like bacteria there are thousands of them some are good many are not and they are incredibly resilient.  If you absolutely have your heart set on earth tubes you need to find a way to routinely clean them.  One way may be to build your self a powerful Ozone generator.  Running ozone through the tubes once a day or once a week would likely keep things under control but the problem with molds are that it is the spoors dead or alive that cause the health effects so it is important not to let them grow to begin with.  Ozone generators can be built cheaply with Neon light ballasts and glass plates.  Google any of the sites that grow the “wonder herb J “ there will be instructions.

 

Nick

 


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Spaceman
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:38 PM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Earth Tubes

 

You are right, and I would not recommend earthtubes for all places. Luckily I live in an area with low humidity, an annual average temperature that is comfortable, and great drainage. Not to mention low annual rainfall. With over 1,200 square feet of surface area in contact with the soil the inside temperature should be stable at 68 degrees even without the earth tubes, but I want to wring out every calorie I can. Tubing with precut slots is not very expensive and will drain well. There won't be any period of time that the tubes will be sealed, so no chance of moisture buildup and starting mold.

Spaceman

Eric Randall wrote:



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Re: [papercreters] Earth Tubes

You are right, and I would not recommend earthtubes for all places. Luckily I live in an area with low humidity, an annual average temperature that is comfortable, and great drainage. Not to mention low annual rainfall. With over 1,200 square feet of surface area in contact with the soil the inside temperature should be stable at 68 degrees even without the earth tubes, but I want to wring out every calorie I can. Tubing with precut slots is not very expensive and will drain well. There won't be any period of time that the tubes will be sealed, so no chance of moisture buildup and starting mold.

Spaceman

Eric Randall wrote:


Here is a website by Larry Larson who specializes in installing earth tubes in the Fairfield, Iowa area: http://www.earthairtubes.com  He slits his tubes lengthwise with a circular saw and then places the slit facing down, which allows any moisture from condensation or otherwise to drain out immediately.  He claims to have success and no mold problems, and has many happy clients in the area.  His photo album shows how he installs his earth tubes, so if you're thinking about earth tubes, definitely check out his site.

On the other hand, I've been told of an earth tube installation that was done locally (I don't think it was done by the above mentioned Larry Larson) that had to be sealed shut due to mold problems.  Apparently it was left sealed after installation during house construction, and so there was no air moving through them for many months.  In this failure case, I don't know if the earth tubes were slitted for drainage or improperly installed in a manner that would allow water/condensation to accumulation in the bottom of the earth tubes, or whether it was simply a question of lack of air movement.  The problem could have been simply improper installation and operation, and had nothing to do with the validity of earth tubes as a cooling system.

Clearly, there are a lot of factors to consider and resolve for earth tubes to work right. 

Earth tubes are pretty much inaccessible once installed, which means you really only have one chance to do it right.  And, while they can be inexpensively operated, either passively or with a small fan, installation is not inexpensive (study the photos and you'll see what I mean).  Locally the trenches for earth tubes are dug 10' deep and either wrap around a foundation (a slight variation on typical earth tube installation), or go out 100' -- that's a fair amount of excavation, tubing, sand, gravel, insulation, etc. -- especially if it might fail due to mold problems and need to be abandoned -- an expensive mistake.  If you use corrugated drain tile (as per photos in www.earthairtubes.com), "swabbing them clean of mold" is really not an option, and more likely if you have a mold problem you'll just admit your mistake, seal them up, and move on.  (The corrugation in the drain tile, and the serpentine method of installation aid in the transfer of heat by slowing down the air movement and creating air current eddies.)

Earth tubes can be a great source of natural, low cost cooling, but personally, the risks of mold in places inaccessible is enough to make me have second thoughts and give serious consideration to other less risky cooling options.

As with all "alternative" and "natural" building technologies, it is up to us each individually to do our own research, analysis, and due diligence and draw our own conclusions before investing our hard-earned money and sweat equity. 

Eric Randall
Fairfield, Iowa


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[papercreters] Re: Structural Insulated Panels

I can not answer that question at the present time as I have not tried the steam as of yet, I'm only guessing at this point about what my actual formula will be. I was using the 50/50 ratio idea because of no water in the mix, other than about a gallon or less of steam to activate the cement and hopefully the paper pulp will take up some of the steam as well. It would be nice if a 20/80 could be reached using steam. I.ve been thinking about the best way to add the cement to the paper pulp and have decided that when the insulation machine is churning up the pulp and sucking it down to the blower area, I think that would be the time to add the cement, that way it would get into every stream of paper pulp and the steam could be added much the same way Dave's stucco gun works, where he is adding air to the wet paper pulp I would be adding steam to the mixture of dry paper pulp and cement.

Bob


 In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Michele Marcell <michele_marcell@...> wrote:

 I have noticed that everyone seems to be using a pretty large ratio of paper to concrete.  I have been making mixes using less than 20 % of concrete for my house and they dry as hard as bags using a lot more. Is 50/50 some sort of standard?
 Michele



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RE: [papercreters] UG Dome

Don’s entire primus is based on the fact that earth tubes work very well to deliver heating and cooling but that the traditional earth tube used in the earth ship model is very prone to dangerous mold.  He is recommending sealed tubes where the exchange of temperature is delivered to the surrounding building passively and that fresh air is maintained in the living space via fresh air make up through heat exchangers.  You may think that in your dry climate that mold will not grow but I think by the time you find out you are wrong the serious health effects could already have taken place.  Having known people who have serious mold sensitivity disease it is not at all pleasant.  It is very similar to the sensitivities auto painters used to get from Isocyanides.  It can kill you but usually it makes your life a living hell with all sorts of fibromyalga (sp) type symptoms which most doctors don’t recognize for what it really is until it is too late.

 

Don’s site is not all that well set up so it is difficult to point exactly what to read.  I would encourage you to read the entire site and maybe take up some correspondence with him.  He has some very interesting history.

 

All the best

Nick


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Spaceman
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:31 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

 

Very interesting site. I didn't find anything specifically addressing earth tubes, just a mention in passing on a couple of pages. Do you have a more direct link?

Spaceman

Nick Boersema wrote:

I would recommend any one thinking of earth tubes to look at Don Stephens work http://www.greenershelter.org

He has a lot of theory on his page and some really good updates on the old technologies of the Seventies.  I do wish he would update his site more frequently with new data form his customers that have been using his ideas for more than five years.

 

Nick

 


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg House
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:41 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

 

Spaceman wrote:

> I'll run a few earth tubes for the air intake so I stay at ambient more or less.

Do you have any experience with earth tubes? I've found a lot of contradictory information about their effectiveness and am wondering if it's really a viable technology or not. It -seems- like it'd be workable, but nobody seems to have information about how deep they need to be, how long, etc.

I found one website that had all these intense calculations about airflow, ground temps, etc which sounded very positive...but then they went to say they'd never actually BUILT one. Great, that's real helpful. Other sites say the ground around the tubes gets heat saturated and they stop functioning after awhile. So I'm confused. This is something I think I'd like to use, but it's a lot of work and money for all that excavation if it doesn't function.

Greg



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[papercreters] Earth Tubes


Here is a website by Larry Larson who specializes in installing earth tubes in the Fairfield, Iowa area: http://www.earthairtubes.com  He slits his tubes lengthwise with a circular saw and then places the slit facing down, which allows any moisture from condensation or otherwise to drain out immediately.  He claims to have success and no mold problems, and has many happy clients in the area.  His photo album shows how he installs his earth tubes, so if you're thinking about earth tubes, definitely check out his site.

On the other hand, I've been told of an earth tube installation that was done locally (I don't think it was done by the above mentioned Larry Larson) that had to be sealed shut due to mold problems.  Apparently it was left sealed after installation during house construction, and so there was no air moving through them for many months.  In this failure case, I don't know if the earth tubes were slitted for drainage or improperly installed in a manner that would allow water/condensation to accumulation in the bottom of the earth tubes, or whether it was simply a question of lack of air movement.  The problem could have been simply improper installation and operation, and had nothing to do with the validity of earth tubes as a cooling system.

Clearly, there are a lot of factors to consider and resolve for earth tubes to work right. 

Earth tubes are pretty much inaccessible once installed, which means you really only have one chance to do it right.  And, while they can be inexpensively operated, either passively or with a small fan, installation is not inexpensive (study the photos and you'll see what I mean).  Locally the trenches for earth tubes are dug 10' deep and either wrap around a foundation (a slight variation on typical earth tube installation), or go out 100' -- that's a fair amount of excavation, tubing, sand, gravel, insulation, etc. -- especially if it might fail due to mold problems and need to be abandoned -- an expensive mistake.  If you use corrugated drain tile (as per photos in www.earthairtubes.com), "swabbing them clean of mold" is really not an option, and more likely if you have a mold problem you'll just admit your mistake, seal them up, and move on.  (The corrugation in the drain tile, and the serpentine method of installation aid in the transfer of heat by slowing down the air movement and creating air current eddies.)

Earth tubes can be a great source of natural, low cost cooling, but personally, the risks of mold in places inaccessible is enough to make me have second thoughts and give serious consideration to other less risky cooling options.

As with all "alternative" and "natural" building technologies, it is up to us each individually to do our own research, analysis, and due diligence and draw our own conclusions before investing our hard-earned money and sweat equity. 

Eric Randall
Fairfield, Iowa

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Re: [papercreters] Re: Structural Insulated Panels

I have noticed that everyone seems to be using a pretty large ratio of paper to concrete.  I have been making mixes using less than 20 % of concrete for my house and they dry as hard as bags using a lot more. Is 50/50 some sort of standard?
Michele

--- On Wed, 2/25/09, Bob <criswells.ok@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Bob <criswells.ok@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Structural Insulated Panels
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 5:01 PM

I have worked with concrete for 40 years, and we have always refered to the drying process as "SET" or "SET UP, as the concrete has set up now we can trowel it"  I am quite aware that papercrete dries and it dries Extremely slowly, because it contains so much water, the process I will do will only involve about a gallon of water as steam. Portland Cement will set (or dry) if you just dig a hole in the ground and pour it in, it needs no additional water to make it set up.  I don't think I made my discreption of my process very clear, I'm not much good with words. I am going to make a small SIP panel 20" wide by 40" tall that would be the same relation as a 48"wide by 96" tall SIP, with 10" repesenting center as 24" would repesent center in a 48" wide sheet. This will serve as my test panel to see if it will work. It is my belief that once cellulose and portland cement are blended 50/50 and activated with steam inside a cavity (packed hard by the insulation machine) they will harden just like wet papercrete. I have never tried this so I'm just guessing but if it works I can forsee building a house about very short time. I have blown cellulose insulation into a cavity like I described and I know the insulation machine packs it in very tight and fills every void.

The panel walls will be attached to the slab or wood floor which ever is desired, by a sole plate that would be bolted to a slab and glued and nailed to a wood floor. The SIP's would be splined together and would have a top plate to support trusses which would be tied to the top plate with hurricane straps for added security. If desired the trusses would only have to be placed on 48" centers and SIP's could be laid and filled after they are all place and anchored to the trusses, with the long special SIP screws that reach completely through and hold the SIP's to the trusses. Thanks for your input all suggestions are welcomed, that is how we learn.

Bob
In papercreters@ yahoogroups. com, "Nick Boersema" <picknick@...> wrote:

 Papercrete dries it does not set therefore I think you will find this won't
 work. I don't see the advantage of this over other alternatives such as
 slip forming in particular for walls. For a roof or ceiling maybe a sip
 would be justified but I still have my doubts. What about sandwiching
 papercrete between two layers of pegboard then when it dries adhering OSB to
 the pegboard?
 
 
 
Nick
 
 
 

 
From: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:papercreter s@yahoogroups. com] On
 Behalf Of Bob
 Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:07 PM
 To: papercreters@ yahoogroups. com
 Subject: [papercreters] Re: Structural Insulated Panels
 
 
 
I know this is going to sound crazy and it probably will not work but I'm
 going to try this method as soon as our weather here in Oklahoma warms up. 
 
My idea is to place two sheets of OSB board one on top of the other, then
 drill about 9 holes for screws, three across the bottom, three across the
 middle and three across the top. I will then coat the inside of both sheets
 with a mixture of 50% Latex paint and 50% water and enough cement to make
 the mixture to the texture of a soupy paste. Once this is dryed if another
 coat is needed I will apply a second coat to insure the OSB boards are water
 proof. 
 
I will them place small 2x4 or 2x6 blocks probably cut exactly square
 either size, over the holes on the bottom sheet, and then screw them all in
 place from the bottom. After all are screwed in place I will build a 3 1/2
 or 5 1/2 frame on three sides (top and long sides) of the bottom sheet,
 flush with the outside edge on top and one long side will be set back 1 1/2"
 from the edge, the other side will have a filler strip (3"xwhat ever the
 blocks are on the inside 3 1/2 or 5 1/2) that will attach to the next pair
 of OSB boards. After this is complete I intend to set the pair astradle of a
 base plate of the same size as the block used inside and screw them to the
 base plate. I will then bore a hole about the size of a quarter at the
 bottom just above the base plate in the middle of one sheet and another in
 the middle at the top just under the top form. I will then use a 50/50
 mixture of cellouse blown in insulation and either portland cement or
 Hydraulic cement. I will blow this mixture into the bottom hole with my
 insulation machine and steam at the same time. When the cavity gets filled
 up to the top hole, I will plug the bottom hole and top off the cavity from
 the top hole all the while blowing steam with the blown in insulation and
 cement, after the cavity is completely full I will plug the top hole as I
 did the bottom hole. This mixture should set up rather quickly and reach
 full strength in 28 days. But the drying time really doesn't matter because
 as soon as I complete the first sheet I will be able to start on the second
 pair and so on and so on until the entire outside wall of the house is
 complete. I know this sounds nuts but I've got to try it.
 
Bob




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Re: [papercreters] Earth tubes

There is a perforated tube that is used for drainage that is great for earthtubes. It is all ready to drain.

Spaceman

Greg House wrote:

Janosh wrote:    
The fact that condensation may take place in earth tubes could be a major reason of concern because mold will probably begin growing in these tubes and become airborne.  I wouldn't want to be breathing it     
 Everything I've read about them says that it's important to provide drainage in the tubes and to regularly clean them out. A swab can be run through them with a string which should eliminate any mold accumulation.  My concern is about ground heat saturation. If the ground is heated around the tube, you won't be able to get any cooling effect by passing air thorough it. I'd like to understand at what point that happens.   I do know that in early spring around here (Kansas) you can use a fan to bring cool air up from your basement and it'll cool your house (provided you have something to control the humidity), but when it warms up sufficiently outside, there isn't enough surface area in the basement walls to overcome the amount of heat that gets transferred and the cooling stops.  Greg             ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      mailto:papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      


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Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

Very interesting site. I didn't find anything specifically addressing earth tubes, just a mention in passing on a couple of pages. Do you have a more direct link?

Spaceman

Nick Boersema wrote:

I would recommend any one thinking of earth tubes to look at Don Stephens work http://www.greenershelter.org

He has a lot of theory on his page and some really good updates on the old technologies of the Seventies.  I do wish he would update his site more frequently with new data form his customers that have been using his ideas for more than five years.

 

Nick

 


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg House
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:41 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

 

Spaceman wrote:

> I'll run a few earth tubes for the air intake so I stay at ambient more or less.

Do you have any experience with earth tubes? I've found a lot of contradictory information about their effectiveness and am wondering if it's really a viable technology or not. It -seems- like it'd be workable, but nobody seems to have information about how deep they need to be, how long, etc.

I found one website that had all these intense calculations about airflow, ground temps, etc which sounded very positive...but then they went to say they'd never actually BUILT one. Great, that's real helpful. Other sites say the ground around the tubes gets heat saturated and they stop functioning after awhile. So I'm confused. This is something I think I'd like to use, but it's a lot of work and money for all that excavation if it doesn't function.

Greg



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Re: [papercreters] Earth tubes

Janosh wrote:

>The fact that condensation may take place
>in earth tubes could be a major reason of concern because mold will probably
>begin growing in these tubes and become airborne. I wouldn't want to be
>breathing it

Everything I've read about them says that it's important to provide drainage in the tubes and to regularly clean them out. A swab can be run through them with a string which should eliminate any mold accumulation.

My concern is about ground heat saturation. If the ground is heated around the tube, you won't be able to get any cooling effect by passing air thorough it. I'd like to understand at what point that happens.

I do know that in early spring around here (Kansas) you can use a fan to bring cool air up from your basement and it'll cool your house (provided you have something to control the humidity), but when it warms up sufficiently outside, there isn't enough surface area in the basement walls to overcome the amount of heat that gets transferred and the cooling stops.

Greg


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Friday, February 27, 2009

RE: [papercreters] Re: Closed cell spray foam

 

 

Hi Dave, I have heard of closed cell urethanes, but at roughly 4 times the density of open cell urethanes it becomes cost prohibitive for a tight budget.  As it is, open cell urethane foam is about the most expensive foam available.  It is certainly useful for compound shapes, and about the highest insulation value.  The draw backs are toxicity and cost.  Open cell will absorb moisture and become nearly useless as demonstrated in colder climates like Fairbanks.  This might be a good solution on the outside of  a concrete buried dome if one can afford it, but I wouldn’t use it anyplace there was a possibility of fire or breathable out gassing.

Janosh


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:38 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Closed cell spray foam

 

Google is your friend, Janosh...
a good explanation:
http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=6

"The advantages of closed-cell foam compared to open-cell foam include
its strength, higher R-value, and its greater resistance to the
leakage of air or water vapor. The disadvantage of the closed-cell
foam is that it is denser, requires more material, and therefore, is
more expensive."

Cheers,
Dave

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Janoahsh" <janoahsh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I�m not familiar with closed cell spray foam. This would be very
useful.
> Please explain.
>
> Janosh



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RE: [papercreters] UG Dome

I would recommend any one thinking of earth tubes to look at Don Stephens work http://www.greenershelter.org

He has a lot of theory on his page and some really good updates on the old technologies of the Seventies.  I do wish he would update his site more frequently with new data form his customers that have been using his ideas for more than five years.

 

Nick

 


From: papercreters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:papercreters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg House
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:41 AM
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [papercreters] UG Dome

 

Spaceman wrote:

> I'll run a few earth tubes for the air intake so I stay at ambient more or less.

Do you have any experience with earth tubes? I've found a lot of contradictory information about their effectiveness and am wondering if it's really a viable technology or not. It -seems- like it'd be workable, but nobody seems to have information about how deep they need to be, how long, etc.

I found one website that had all these intense calculations about airflow, ground temps, etc which sounded very positive...but then they went to say they'd never actually BUILT one. Great, that's real helpful. Other sites say the ground around the tubes gets heat saturated and they stop functioning after awhile. So I'm confused. This is something I think I'd like to use, but it's a lot of work and money for all that excavation if it doesn't function.

Greg



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