I enjoy reading, but with the Code Project and all this great
information, HELP I'M DROWNING. I can't keep up with all the great
stuff I want to read.
I wonder if I can recruite Evelyn Wood to join Papercreters? (Did I
just show my age again?)
Ah well. I'll survive. I'd rather have too much to read than not
enough :).
Keep it coming. Don't be afraid to post some of the better documents
in the Papercreters Links section.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "mdumiller" <mdmiller1@...>
wrote:
>
> Much of what we consider recent knowledge is really ancient.
Possibly
> you ran onto this paper from 1958, which is heavy on the chem side
and
> outside my forte, but starting at about page 23, it discusses both
> minimums for borax (3 lbs per cubic foot) and boric acid. Since
wood
> runs about 40 pounds/cf then we're back to the neighborhood of that
> 7.5% number again. No surprises here. What was REAL intriguing was
> Table 8, near the end of the paper, which compares glow of various
> products and shows Ammonium Dihydrogen Phosphate as having the best
of
> both worlds, both good glow and flame retardant properties. This
> chemical is also known as monoammonium phosphate or MAP. Funny
thing,
> it is the material used in many dry powder fire extinguishers. Go
> figure. Also it is an agricultural fertilizer. I know many
> fertilizers are destructive to cured concrete, but interestingly
> enough, ammonium phosphate concretes are actually products your can
> buy and are used in patching things like airfield runways because of
> their fast cure and high compressive strengths. This product might
be
> worth looking into as a pc component. Anybody have any ?? Know
where
> to acquire?? I'm game to test.
>
>
http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/dspace/bitstream/1957/2668/1/FPL_213
6ocr.pdf
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Neal Chabot" <sire@> wrote:
> >
> > There seems to be a dearth of recent research on the boric
> acid/borax combination. Perhaps I should not be so hasty in
> criticizing the 1990 paper for keeping their solution hidden and not
> citing previous research. This borate combination has been used in
> homespun fire prevention for many years. For example there is the
> following recipe:
> > "Mix together nine ounces 20 Mule Team Borax and four ounces boric
> acid in one gallon water."
> >
> > Boric acid is not very soluble in tap water (~6%). As very
mildly
> acidic it would only have a very small effect on the alkaline cement
> reaction. Lack of solubility means that the water in a papercrete
> mix would function primarily as a dispersal medium. Thus it is an
> open question how much of the boric acid would be deposited on the
> paper and how much would be drained away by the water.
> >
> > In contrast to boric acid, I am now very hopeful about the
> possibilities of using borax in a PC mix. Here are some
interesting
> facts: Borax is a salt of boron and has been described as being, in
> essence, half-neutralized boric acid. As opposed to the
insolubility
> of boric acid, borax is very soluble in water and forms an alkaline,
> antiseptic solution that is used as a water softener, disinfectant,
> detergent and welding flux. In solution (like your washing machine)
> it is an alkaline buffer, which means it would help the cemeneous
> reaction in a PC mix. It would also promote the solubility of
> ingredients in PC.
> >
> > Borax's fire retardant properties may be due to the fact that when
> it is heated above 62C borax puffs up to many times its original
size
> in a voluminous, spongy mass.
> >
> > Historical tidbits: many ancient people found valuable uses for
> borax. The Egyptians used borax in mummification while the Romans
used
> it for glass making. Marco Polo's caravans transported it from Tibet
> to Europe in the 13th century. Borax was a rare commodity until
lake
> bed deposits were found in California in the 1850s. The most famous
> commercial borax mining operations were located in Death Valley in
> California in the 1880s. Borax was recovered by dissolving "cotton
> balls" made up of borate minerals in boiling water. As the solution
> cooled the borax precipitated out. To get the borax to market was a
> 165 mile journey through the hot desert to the nearest railroad. Up
to
> ten tons of borax was carried on giant wagons that were pulled by
> teams of 18 mules and 2 draft horses - the famous "20-mule teams."
> These teams averaged two miles an hour; as a result the round trip
> took 30 days to complete.
> >
> > Neal
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Neal Chabot
> > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: PC fire resistance
> >
> >
> >
> > Duane,
> >
> > There article you reference is 17 years old and contains some
> theories (like the char coating) that have been shown to be false
> recently, at least in the 2004 paper that I used. The main problem
> with the article is that it uses an unknown and unnamed commercial
> boric acid/borax preparation. Since we don't know the name of
this,
> we don't know whether it is water based or how the two ingredients
> were combined. Questionable research. It may be that as SG or
> someone pointed out that mixing boric acid with borax with water may
> not be a good way to combine these two ingredients, especially for
the
> necessary cement reaction in PC. It would be interesting to look
at
> the ingredients of currently available fire retardation products
now.
> >
> > The paper does have a brief (and inadequate) description of the
> fire tube test:
> >
> > In the fire tube test, the sample stick is inserted reside(sic)
a
> 38 in.- (1-m-) long, 3-in.- (76-mm-) diameter galvanized iron tube.
A
> Bunson burner adjusted for a flame height of 11 in (280 mm)
> > IS used to ignite the bottom end of the stick. Weight loss of
the
> stick is monitored Via a balance mechanism. The burner is removed
> > after 4 rnin. The final percentage of weight loss is used as the
> main criterion for comparison.
> >
> > Neal
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mdumiller
> > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:38 AM
> > Subject: [papercreters] Re: PC fire resistance
> >
> >
> > I followed some advice in the article "The role of boron in
> > flame-retardant treatments" which notes that :
> >
> > "Borax tends to reduce flame spread but can promote
smoldering or
> > glowing, On the other hand, boric acid suppresses smoldering
but has
> > little effect on flame spread. Therefore, these compounds are
> normally
> > used together."
> >
> > the other stat which I used was:
> > "We estimated that loading levels of at least 7.5 percent add-
on
> level
> > of borax-boric acid are needed for southern Pine to meet the
> ASTM E 84
> > class I requirement."
> >
> > The article I should have referenced was
> >
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1990/levan90a.pdf
> >
> > I based my percentages on the weight of the fuel (the paper
part) so
> > my add-on was 8% of the paper weight. I used the 1:1:1 ratio
of
> > paper:portland:sand based on it being in the "middle" of a lot
> of the
> > recipes I saw, including at livinginpaper.com where they
listed a
> > 1 : 1.5 : 1 mix as a "starting point". I actually had some
lime in
> > the mix too, so my mineral portion was probably closer to 1
1/3
> > mineral. One thing I did not do, and should have, was to
> pre-dissolve
> > the borax in hot water, this might have made a big
difference. From
> > my experience, Borax does not dissolve very well in cold
water.
> >
> > SLURRYGUY thanks for your ongoing encouragement and advice !!
I'll
> > put more portland into the mix!!
> >
> > A point I had hoped to make is that, IMHO, if the mix is too
> lean, and
> > if proper fire-retardants are not added to the mix, the final
> product
> > is a death-trap if it's something you will live in. The
recipes
> being
> > presented don't clearly indicate the critical issue here.
There's a
> > good reason that houses use non-combustible drywall over the
> > combustible wood studs. If you intend to used PC for a house,
you
> > should pay particular attention to the mix to achieve a
product that
> > does not burn, or coat the surface with a plaster-type
component to
> > prevent surface combustion. In our excitement to further the
use
> of a
> > green building material, it is easy to forget that the primary
> > ingredient in these PC buildings is the same one we use to
start a
> > roaring camp fire.
> >
> > I'll try a similar test with more portland/mineral and pre-
dissolved
> > borax/boric acid as per the paper referenced above, and, if
> anyone is
> > interested am happy to share the results. I've noticed other
PC
> > websites are charging for their research, and sincerely
> appreciate the
> > open-source approach of this incredible forum. - Duane
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Neal Chabot" <sire@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Duane may be using the words boric acid and borax
synonymously.
> > The Forest Service research (2004 paper) that Duane implicitly
> > references does not use borax in the tests for fire
retardation. It
> > uses boric acid in about a 3.5% concentration by weight. It
also
> > uses a chemical called guanylurea phosphate (GUP) by itself
and in
> > combination with boric acid. That combination (7.5% total
weight)
> > gave the best fire retardation properties, so it may be worth
> > consideration for use in PC when maximum fire retardation is
> important.
> > >
> > > Neal
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: slurryguy
> > > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:04 PM
> > > Subject: [papercreters] Re: PC fire resistance
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Duane,
> > >
> > > Your results are close to inline with my experiments, but I
don't
> > > agree with your conclusions. Papercrete can be made such
that it
> > > will not continue to smolder. Please continue to experiment.
> > >
> > > I've conducted ALMOST the exact same test you conducted. I
didn't
> > > use any borax in a 1:1:1 paper, portland, sand test mix and
> obtained
> > > very similar results.
> > >
> > > 2-1 ratio of portand to paper seems to be very close to the
point
> > > where papercrete begins to become non smolder supporting.
> > >
> > > All papercrete will char on the surface when exposed to a
> torch in
> > > the manner you conducted your test. Higher mineral content
mixes
> > > will not continue to smolder. Also keep in mind that air
> circulation
> > > affects the test. If the small embers are fanned
sufficiently
> they
> > > will tend to smolder hotter and longer.
> > >
> > > I'm curious about your logic about using a mixture of both
> boric acid
> > > and borax. One is acidic the other is alkaline. It seems
they
> would
> > > chemically react and form a boric salt and a little (very
little)
> > > extra water. I don't know if boric salt has the same
combustion
> > > retarding properties as plain borax. I also don't know if
> boric salt
> > > will penetrate inside the paper fibers the same. 8% borates
seems
> > > very high and should have produced much better results than
> observed
> > > in your test. I'm wondering if the acid/alkaline reaction
> might be
> > > the reason. Just guessing.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind that portland is not the only material that can
> raise
> > > the mineral content to bring papercrete's fire resistance
up to a
> > > level that it will not continue to smolder. Clay works very
well.
> > >
> > > 1:1:1:1 paper, portland, clay, sand with some plain borax
will
> fare
> > > far far better. It might continue to smolder for a short
time,
> but
> > > it will not consume the whole sample as you experienced.
> > >
> > > Alternatively 2:1:1 portland, paper, sand with plain borax
> will also
> > > fare well.
> > >
> > > 2:1:3:2 paper, portland, clay, sand with some plain borax
will
> also
> > > fare well, but will take longer to dry.
> > >
> > > I encourage you to keep experimenting and reporting your
results.
> > > The experiment you conducted is not a failure. It's part of
the
> > > learning process.
> > >
> > > One more thought. When did you add your borates? My rule of
thumb
> > > is to add the borax to the paper as soon as possible during
the
> > > pulping process. This gives maximum opportunity for it to
soak
> into
> > > the paper.
> > >
> > > (All ratios I listed are BY WEIGHT)
> > >
> > > Keep having fun. Keep sharing.
> > >
> > > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "mdumiller"
<mdmiller1@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I ran a fairly unscientific but interesting fire-
resistance
> test on
> > > a
> > > > PC sample I had made. From what I see, I'm not convinced
> that PC
> > > can
> > > > be made totally fire resistant without a lot of additives
> > > (increasing
> > > > its cost to make). My mix included a borax/boric acid mix
in a
> > > > weight ratio equal to what the forest service recommends
for
> making
> > > > wood more fire-resistant.
> > > > What was interesting was that the material never at any
time
> as a
> > > > fuel source produced an open flame, only smoldering.
Another
> fact
> > > I
> > > > found interesting was that the block continued to smolder
for
> > > twenty
> > > > minutes after the propane torch was removed, looking like
a
> piece
> > > of
> > > > charcoal from the barbecue grill. I would imagine that
doubling
> > > the
> > > > portland would slow the smoldering, but I had hoped the
> borax/boric
> > > > acid mix would extinguish the block once the torch was
> removed--but
> > > > no luck.
> > > > Some type of integral firestopping might makes sense when
PC is
> > > used
> > > > in a wall to limit the spread of the smoldering, since
> ultimately
> > > the
> > > > block was consummed. To play it safe, I believe that the
wall
> > > > surface should be coated with a plaster or gypsum product
to
> > > prevent
> > > > the smoldering from starting. Here is a link to pictures:
> > > > http://www.domovitae.com/fcrete/pcfire.htm
> > > >
> > > > food for thought - Duane.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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