Re: [papercreters] Re: MIXERS;

Donald where are you I am in Tucson?

 

Ken

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From: Donald Miller <donald1miller@yahoo.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: MIXERS;

- Well the mixer debates continues............Anyone who has done any serious volume of block making/slipforming of papercrete will tell you that it takes a LOT of slurry to do a building of any size. The tow mixer fills the bill wonderfully and there a lot of plans, pictures and design on this forum. Jay, I totally disagree with you on the amount of energy used to tow the mixer with a vehicle. It takes a LOT of power to cut up paper or cardboard.A LOT OF POWER! An AC or DC motor of any size would still be very slow and would take a long time to make any useful amount of slurry. A great deal of the energy used to tow the mixer is actually used to mix the slurry. I tried to pull my 160 gallon tow mixer with a large Polaris ATV and it put such a strain on it to get the mixer moving that I had to go back to the diesel pickup. Once the paper/cardboard starts to shred it takes less power but I have a Dodge 12 valve diesel 3/4 ton pickup and it makes it grunt till the mix gets cut up some. I am cutting heavy cardboard and I load the soaked board til it comes to top of the tank then fill it with water and take off. It would probably take less power if I added the cardboard more slowly but that is hard to as I work by myself and it would slow the process down considerably. I live totally off grid and have solar panels and a small wind generator to charge my batteries. I run a 22 cu. ft. refrigertor, a microwave, coffee maker, satellite tv, computers, lights and in the summer months a couple of swamp coolers and fans. (I live in SW Arizona) For my money the wind genny is basically worthless as it takes a really big blow to generate any really useful power, but that's off topic I guess. Any kind of electric motor, whether DC or AC through an inverter is going to require a humongous array of solar panels and an even more humongous battery bank. I just bought 12 new 230 ah 6 volt heavy duty batteries to the tune of $1300.00 and they will run my system but not any big motors for any length of time. My old battery bank is getting weak so the new ones will be held in reserve. One has to factor this cost into the Solar equation. The power required to mix papercrete in any kind of volume would not be practical with a solar/battery system. I run my pickup on used cooking oil so my cost for fuel is minimal. I also have a 5 cylinder Mercedes diesel engine that I plan to make a stationary generator with. I can run it on used cooking oil as well. Another thing to factor in is the amount of water it takes to soak the paper/cardboard and to mix it. It takes a lot of power to pump water. I run a gas generator to pump water for my papercrete mixing and household needs. So to say that a motor powered mixer would be practical for an off grid setup is misleading from my experience. Another thing to factor into the equation is the fact that solar is not cheap and the reason that many people are attracted to PC in the first place is that they do not have a lot of money. So,to all the newbies that are looking for advice, be forewarned that it takes a lot of manual labor to do much volume and it will not be an instant gratification type of situation. But if you can be patient and are not adverse to a little sweat you can end up with an excellent building with a minimal cash requirement. And think of all the money you will save by not having to pay a "health" club to get some excercise! -- On Fri, 3/16/12, JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> wrote From: JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> Subject: [papercreters] Re: MIXERS; To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 11:57 AM   Well, lets see if I can make it more clear. I think the tow mixer is a great design. It is probably the simplest mixer that can make large batches, and most anyone can scrounge together the parts to build one. If they have the welding skills or know someone who does, it's a very practical machine. However, I don't think it is necessarily always the best solution for every situation. The tow mixer is probably the most energy INEFFICIENT mixer design I have ever seen. It's a very practical easy to build design, but it leaves a lot to be desired in energy consumption. Gasoline or Diesel fuel contain a lot of energy, however the vast majority of that energy is wasted as heat or other losses that do not help move the vehicle. http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html Of the fraction of energy that does actually make it to the wheels of a vehicle, most of that energy is used simply to move the massive weight of the vehicle, the driver, the tow mixer, and the large weight of water, paper, and cement in the mixer around. The goal is not to take your papercrete mix on a scenic tour of the neighborhood. I don't care how beautiful the scenery is. Moving it around the block, or up and down the road is a big waste of energy. The goal is to spin that mixer blade. I would estimate that of the total energy contained in each gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel that perhaps 1% or less of that energy actually goes in to spinning the blade to mix the papercrete. In many cases that may be okay. Sometimes it makes sense to be energy inefficient in order be more efficient in the cost of your tools, or the complexity of your equipment. I'm not passing judgement on tow mixers as bad. I'm simply pointing out that they do have limitations, just like any tool does. The more papercrete someone intends to mix, the more costly it will become in energy costs to power the mixer. The more papercrete one makes, the more money they can save by building some type of stationary mixer where a much greater percentage of the energy is used to spin the blade instead of dragging your papercrete on a parade route for all the neighborhood to listen to that musical band playing grinding and sloshing sounds. If someone finds themselves in an area where a gas station is a long way away, then it becomes even more important to ration the use of gasoline. An electric mixer suddenly starts to look like a very attractive option. Batteries could be charged by solar, wind, hydro, a wood powered steam generator, a woodgas powered engine, or just about any other power source. I like the idea of tow mixers. Mike McCain came up with an excellent design that has put papercrete mixing into the hands of many average people. That's awesome. I simply acknowldege that it is not the only way, and in some situations, it may not always be the best way. I'm a fan of discussing all the possible options, and letting each individual decide which option works best for his/her own situation. I'm glad you like your tow mixer. As long as you are happy with what it does and the cost of operating it for the amount of papercrete you are making, then I applaud your choice. You don't need my approval or endorsement. If someone else is not happy with how much a tow mixer may cost them to operate in their own situation, I want them to be aware of the other options. --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Alan <rustaholic777@...> wrote: > > Sorry Jay, > Not clear at all. > I must say that the best option is the towable mixer. > Whatever you drive or your team of horses can pull it. > My tow mixer is still in pieces but it is all scattered around my property. >   > Alan > > > --- On Thu, 3/15/12, JayH <slurryguy@...> wrote: > > > > From: JayH <slurryguy@...> > Subject: [papercreters] Re: MIXERS; > To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, March 15, 2012, 11:20 AM > > SNIP > > Clearly a battery powered mixer would have maximum advantages in an off grid situation.  >   > SNIP > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

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