__._,_.___----- Original Message -----From: JanoahshSent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:14 PMSubject: RE: [papercreters] Re: Insulation Value
OK I'll restate the question.
Urethane foam over 4" thick gives very little additional insulation over what is achieved in 4".
EPS over 6" shows little benefit.
What I am seeking is that point that little benefit is gained by adding greater thickness to papercrete. Due to the different ways of making papercrete this will be a variable.
I'm planning a double thin shell Ferro Cement Egg separated by continuous papercrete insulation at least 1' thick.
Windows and doors will be covered with shutters made the same way. Openings will be horn shaped projections extending out from the basic egg shape to facilitate complete burial with only the openings projecting out to the surface. This will be off grid and will contain greenhouse and small pond to aid in air and water filtration.
I'm considering varying the sprayed paper mix using cement and paper with no sand, adjacent to the FC shells to almost pure paper at the center of the core.
The climate here in Homer Alaska is much more temperate than most would think when hearing
, due to its southern Alaska Coastal location. There have only been a few days below zero this winter with average temps near or above freezing. Our shortest day at winter Solstice is 5 hours and 59 minutes, or 6 hours. We will be taking advantage of wind and solar power. Alaska Battery charging will also provide Browns gas that can be used for additional energy. The lower portion of the egg will have tanks suspended in papercrete as well, for storing thermal energy.My question is at what thickness I have gained at least 90% of the practical insulation value I can achieve. I realize this is a variable, but I'd like a guestamate as to what to shoot for.
I can post pictures showing the concept if you'd like, but I can't remember where or how to post it.
Thank You for the help.
Janosh
From:
papercreters@ [mailto:yahoogroups. com papercreters@ ] On Behalf Of slurryguyyahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 6:49 AM
To:papercreters@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Insulation Value
The "maximum practical insulation value" for a structure is dependent
on many factors.
Climate (since you are in, insultion is of great importance) Alaska
Thermal design of the structure (windows and other thermal holes)
Size.
Heating/Cooling Fuels available.
Livestyle
Personal expectations.
IMHO the design strategy should begin by looking at your own
expectations. For example, creating a passivly heated solar home
near the arctic circle where winter sunlight is minimal is
impractical regardless of how well insulated it is.
The personal expectation also play in to what YOU think is
practical. Many individuals in today's society think that living off-
grid in any form is completely impractical. These same individuals
may also think solar panels and wind chargers are ugly, while those
that enjoy living off-grid think they are beautiful in their own way.
I can easily design a papercrete insulation envelop to fit your needs
for your structure if you give me enough information about your
design and your expectations.
1. Average daily outdoor temperature on a typical worst winter month.
2. How much heat (fuel) do you expect to put into the building on a
daily basis during that worst winter month?
3. Alternatively you can answer the same questions for an average
winter month.
4. Size and rough shape of the structure.
5. Number, size, and type of windows expected. (also exterior doors)
Using this information, I would then proceed to calculate the BTU's
of heat you expect to burn and design an envelope that will not leak
more BTU's than that. It's all in the math. It's not really
complicated, but it can be tedious. Spreadsheets are wonderful
things.
One logical method to determine what is "practical" is to look at the
cost of your fuel over the lifetime of the structure and add that to
your construction costs. The idea is to design for the least total
expense in fuel and construction materials and labor.
Papercrete is so inexpensive to make, and most fuels are so expensive
while continuing to climb. This combined with the extreme climate inindicates to me that it will be well worth the money and Alaska
effort to create an extremely well insulated structure. It is not
difficult for me to imagine that 4-5 feet thick papercrete walls
would be economically justified. Perhaps even thicker.
To my knowledge nobody has ever vacuum bagged papercrete slurry.
("Sniped from Slurry Guy")
(Just so you know ... Slurry Guy is too old to go snipe hunting
anymore. however, I might be convinced to teach others how to do it.)
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups. , "Janoahsh" <janoahsh@..com .> wrote:
>
> Sniped from Slurry Guy
>
>
>
> "My experiments have indicated that the more densely packed the
paper fibers
> are, the better insulator it becomes. Foaming likely will produce
the
> opposite effect."
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This is what I need to know most. How thick a papercrete core do I
need to
> gain maximum practical insulation value in a double thin shell
Ferro cement
> structure, and what is the formula for best insulation?
>
> Previous discussions seem to indicate that papercrete made with
cement is
> probably better for insulation than mixes with sand added.
>
> I plan to spray the papercrete on the inside of a 1" FC shell then
add a
> second FC shell on the inside.
>
> Will 12" be enough?
>
> Has anyone tried Vacuum bagging wet papercrete to remove excess
water and
> compress the papercrete?
>
> Janosh
>
>
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1/22/2008
> 11:04 AM
>
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