I found a MSDS that listed silica sand at 110# per cu. ft., so the estimate is safe.
Bobby
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "liberty1_27606" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
> You were concerned about a dome floating away in the breeze. I think not - papercrete is lighter than conventional masonry, but, if you include sand or dirt or clay, it will still be fairly heavy.
>
> Clyde suggested you look at Eve's garden. They document their mix at:
>
> http://www.evesgarden.org/the-bed-and-breakfast/architecture/
>
> Their formula is:
>
> For one cubic yard mix:
>
> 2 cubic feet of Portland cement
>
> 2/3 cubic foot of metakaolin pozzolan
>
> 12 cubic feet of perlite or plaster sand
>
> 125 pounds of recycled paper
>
>
>
> Estimating weights in the formula:
>
> 2 x 94#/cubic foot = 188#
>
> 2/3 x 50#/cubic foot = 33# SWAG
>
> 12 x 100#/cubic foot = 1200# SWAG
>
> 125# 125#
>
> Total 1546#
>
> Notice that the water was not included, since we assume that it all evaporates. There is a complicated reaction between the cement, the water, and the air. We need to measure this to get the real weight. But the sand makes up so much of the weight, if we get it right, we have a good estimate.
>
> (If anyone has the real weight for either pozzolan or sand, please speak up.)
>
> With a cubic foot weighing 1546#, if you make the walls 6" thick or more, it should not float away. I think I want to make my walls a foot or more to get enough insulation, so I don't think it is a problem.
>
> Bobby
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "andytulip40" wrote:
> >
> > Hi joined the group today having googled my way through information on papercreting.
> >
> > I am looking at utilising my domestic waste output (as a new years resolution) I live in the UK and want to reduce the number of large recycle bins outside my house. I want to absorb all waste aside from garden and food waste.
> >
> > I intend to make papercrete blocks. However this blocks will be thicker than usual blocks as i want to use cans and bottles (glass and plastic) inside. The cans and bottles will absorb waste such a wrappings, packaging. These will then be earth rammed with ssoil/sand from the garden to provide bulk and strength.
> >
> > The paper and cardboard will then be used to from a papercrete shell aroung the plastic bottles/metal cans. The advantages of this method are that it will
> >
> > a)utilise all of my non organic doemestic waste (more recycled than paper
> > b) offset the amount of papercrete needed and therefore cement required
> >
> > I have several questions which i hope some of you guys may be able to help me with
> >
> > 1) I intend to build a standard block What is the minium thickness i could get away with for strength.
> > The standard concrete block in UK is 440mm wide, 210mm high and has a thickness of 100mm. This will absorb all pet botttles, cans, soft drinks/beers cans which take up 60mm allowing 20mm thickness of papercrete. Is 20mm sufficient or will the blocks ned to be thicker than 100mm.
> >
> > 2) having analysed my waste i have more cardboard than paper. Is is possible to have a mix of say 60% cardboard, 40% paper?
> >
> > 3) i have a dedicated wheelie bin for my pulp. Is it best to add water first allowing paper to pulp over time and absorb water or just do the pulping process in one go.
> >
> > 4) It is the middle of winter now. How long will it take for blocks to dry inside a cold non heated garage. I intend to start building in March when I have a supply of blocks, weather and daylight on my side, will 2 months drying be sufficient?
> >
> > 5) I want a uniformed block with straight edges on all sides. looking at pictures of blocks from molds they look a bit wavy. has any of you guys tried cutting papercrete? I would prefer a benchsaw, not handheld as i want a perfect straight cut. Can anyone recommend an appropriate one.
> >
> > 6) The finish, ideally a smooth tidy finish as this will be on show. When molding the blocks is is wise to apply a primer, of some sort to the finished side so that it comes out of the mold smooth.
> >
> >
> > Apologies for my many questions, but i am taking this project quite seriously. In return if any of you guys needs help or advice in reccling tyres and building with earth rammed tyres i could be you man. i have worked with tyres since 2009 and dug an underground earthship in my garden. Tyres are a great building tool if you have space but are simply too big and rounded to create a finsish without lots of rendering. It is also very labour intensive ramming a tyre properly.
> > I got into papercrete from this perspective and can offer lots of advice. Alas my mrs (not a big fan of recycling has banned me from tyres, so I have had to come up with something else.
> >
> > I appreciate anyones input on my questions as it will hopefully save me many weeks in experimenting.
> >
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Saturday, January 19, 2013
[papercreters] Re: I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters
[papercreters] Re: I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters
Andy,
You were concerned about a dome floating away in the breeze. I think not - papercrete is lighter than conventional masonry, but, if you include sand or dirt or clay, it will still be fairly heavy.
Clyde suggested you look at Eve's garden. They document their mix at:
http://www.evesgarden.org/the-bed-and-breakfast/architecture/
Their formula is:
For one cubic yard mix:
2 cubic feet of Portland cement
2/3 cubic foot of metakaolin pozzolan
12 cubic feet of perlite or plaster sand
125 pounds of recycled paper
Estimating weights in the formula:
2 x 94#/cubic foot = 188#
2/3 x 50#/cubic foot = 33# SWAG
12 x 100#/cubic foot = 1200# SWAG
125# 125#
Total 1546#
Notice that the water was not included, since we assume that it all evaporates. There is a complicated reaction between the cement, the water, and the air. We need to measure this to get the real weight. But the sand makes up so much of the weight, if we get it right, we have a good estimate.
(If anyone has the real weight for either pozzolan or sand, please speak up.)
With a cubic foot weighing 1546#, if you make the walls 6" thick or more, it should not float away. I think I want to make my walls a foot or more to get enough insulation, so I don't think it is a problem.
Bobby
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "andytulip40" wrote:
>
> Hi joined the group today having googled my way through information on papercreting.
>
> I am looking at utilising my domestic waste output (as a new years resolution) I live in the UK and want to reduce the number of large recycle bins outside my house. I want to absorb all waste aside from garden and food waste.
>
> I intend to make papercrete blocks. However this blocks will be thicker than usual blocks as i want to use cans and bottles (glass and plastic) inside. The cans and bottles will absorb waste such a wrappings, packaging. These will then be earth rammed with ssoil/sand from the garden to provide bulk and strength.
>
> The paper and cardboard will then be used to from a papercrete shell aroung the plastic bottles/metal cans. The advantages of this method are that it will
>
> a)utilise all of my non organic doemestic waste (more recycled than paper
> b) offset the amount of papercrete needed and therefore cement required
>
> I have several questions which i hope some of you guys may be able to help me with
>
> 1) I intend to build a standard block What is the minium thickness i could get away with for strength.
> The standard concrete block in UK is 440mm wide, 210mm high and has a thickness of 100mm. This will absorb all pet botttles, cans, soft drinks/beers cans which take up 60mm allowing 20mm thickness of papercrete. Is 20mm sufficient or will the blocks ned to be thicker than 100mm.
>
> 2) having analysed my waste i have more cardboard than paper. Is is possible to have a mix of say 60% cardboard, 40% paper?
>
> 3) i have a dedicated wheelie bin for my pulp. Is it best to add water first allowing paper to pulp over time and absorb water or just do the pulping process in one go.
>
> 4) It is the middle of winter now. How long will it take for blocks to dry inside a cold non heated garage. I intend to start building in March when I have a supply of blocks, weather and daylight on my side, will 2 months drying be sufficient?
>
> 5) I want a uniformed block with straight edges on all sides. looking at pictures of blocks from molds they look a bit wavy. has any of you guys tried cutting papercrete? I would prefer a benchsaw, not handheld as i want a perfect straight cut. Can anyone recommend an appropriate one.
>
> 6) The finish, ideally a smooth tidy finish as this will be on show. When molding the blocks is is wise to apply a primer, of some sort to the finished side so that it comes out of the mold smooth.
>
>
> Apologies for my many questions, but i am taking this project quite seriously. In return if any of you guys needs help or advice in reccling tyres and building with earth rammed tyres i could be you man. i have worked with tyres since 2009 and dug an underground earthship in my garden. Tyres are a great building tool if you have space but are simply too big and rounded to create a finsish without lots of rendering. It is also very labour intensive ramming a tyre properly.
> I got into papercrete from this perspective and can offer lots of advice. Alas my mrs (not a big fan of recycling has banned me from tyres, so I have had to come up with something else.
>
> I appreciate anyones input on my questions as it will hopefully save me many weeks in experimenting.
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [papercreters] Re: Vault building--free PDF for construction
As far as I know, ferrocement is not in any building codes, so it
probably would not make a difference to an inspector unless you could
convince him that it is the same as "normal" reinforced concrete, and
then he would probably want to see an engineer's calculations. Rule of
thumb with code enforcers is that if it isn't in the book, they won't
approve it without an engineer's stamp, shifting liability to the
engineer. Any design that is a deviation from standard practices would
fall under this rule.
spaceman
On 1/17/2013 7:26 PM, trendawareness wrote:
> Another question I had for those more knowledgeable on building codes is whether or not a vault that used a load-bearing ferrocrete frame might get approved in jurisdictions where a pure papercrete structure wouldn't (yet).
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Friday, January 18, 2013
[papercreters] Re: Vault building--free PDF for construction
Trend,
I like your suggestion of caternary arches. I believe catenaries give us the the best balance of forces.
Are you looking at circular arches (domes) or extruded arches?
Please keep us informed with what you find and test.
Bobby
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "trendawareness" wrote:
>
> Coincidentally, I was researching arches and vaults as a potential papercrete project before I thought to search this forum to see if someone had already given it a try. Next time I'll start my research here first :-)
>
> I'm neither an engineer nor architect but my first impression is that the lighter weight of the papercrete blocks shouldn't adversely affect the properties of the arch or dome. In fact, in their large domes, the Romans used progressively lighter and thinner materials in the tops to lessen the weight on the lower parts of the structures.
>
> But in the absence of mortar or some other retention, could a strong wind "lift" parts of a lightweight papercrete vault? That's a good question. Airfoils and arches have a lot of similarities.
>
> The questions I was going to post here before I found this thread is whether or not anyone has attempted a parabolic or catenary arch / vault with papercrete or paracrete? If so, has anyone attempted to use a slip form method of construction?
>
> My research indicates these forms of arches are self-supporting and don't (shouldn't) require additional structures to contain the outward thrust. (Although I agree a small scale project should be attempted first.)
>
> Using Sketchup and a free plug-in called Curve Maker, I'm able to draw parabolas and catenaries.
>
> Being also fond of lath and ferrocrete, one design concept I'm working on in Sketchup is forming the vault with ferrocrete lath first, then attaching a slip form to the exterior and slip forming up from the lowest ends to the apex with a papercrete layer.
>
> The end result should be a very strong ferrocrete vault with a second, well insulated papercrete vault exterior. If desired or required, a suitable shingle could be attached to the exterior surface to keep the rain off the papercrete.
>
> A variation would use two parallel layers of arched lath about 8" apart (connected by thermally non-conductive spacers) then fill the gap with papercrete. In this version, ferrocrete might be used as the outer shell with plain lath on the inner layer to keep the papercrete dry while still allowing it to breathe. A papercrete mix could then be sprayed over the inner lath for aesthetics.
>
> Both methods appear workable within Sketchup, but again, one can violate a lot of physical laws within Sketchup.
>
> Another question I had for those more knowledgeable on building codes is whether or not a vault that used a load-bearing ferrocrete frame might get approved in jurisdictions where a pure papercrete structure wouldn't (yet).
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[papercreters] Re- Dome -Manual lever method
For thousands of years man has used levers to lift, it still works.
One way I used to use to load roofing and decking onto a roof was a
platform much like one who use for holding a water tower , a very
small one of course. Then I made a Lazy Susan out of old bearings and
welded one end of a large bolt to the centre of the Lazy Susan and an
old U-Bolt to hold the lever , a stout wooden pole in this case. A
piece of old strap from a tie down was used to grasp the bundles. Not
sure what your bags will weigh but a 2 cubic foot bag of concrete is
about 270.
Make your bags up and set them on the wall with the lever and have
your helper place them [or vice-versa} . I like using a rope tied to
an eye bolt to place the bags and give the correct angle.
Because of the extra work in building the doors , windows etc. for a
dome I like the u-shape method. The strait walls go up fast and a
u-shaped roof is much easier to lay out and lay up. Adding an a/c is
easier also but each to his own.
--
Forrest Charnock
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com
papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [papercreters] Re: Vault building--free PDF for construction
Coincidentally, I was researching arches and vaults as a potential papercrete project before I thought to search this forum to see if someone had already given it a try. Next time I'll start my research here first :-)
I'm neither an engineer nor architect but my first impression is that the lighter weight of the papercrete blocks shouldn't adversely affect the properties of the arch or dome. In fact, in their large domes, the Romans used progressively lighter and thinner materials in the tops to lessen the weight on the lower parts of the structures.
But in the absence of mortar or some other retention, could a strong wind "lift" parts of a lightweight papercrete vault? That's a good question. Airfoils and arches have a lot of similarities.
The questions I was going to post here before I found this thread is whether or not anyone has attempted a parabolic or catenary arch / vault with papercrete or paracrete? If so, has anyone attempted to use a slip form method of construction?
My research indicates these forms of arches are self-supporting and don't (shouldn't) require additional structures to contain the outward thrust. (Although I agree a small scale project should be attempted first.)
Using Sketchup and a free plug-in called Curve Maker, I'm able to draw parabolas and catenaries.
Being also fond of lath and ferrocrete, one design concept I'm working on in Sketchup is forming the vault with ferrocrete lath first, then attaching a slip form to the exterior and slip forming up from the lowest ends to the apex with a papercrete layer.
The end result should be a very strong ferrocrete vault with a second, well insulated papercrete vault exterior. If desired or required, a suitable shingle could be attached to the exterior surface to keep the rain off the papercrete.
A variation would use two parallel layers of arched lath about 8" apart (connected by thermally non-conductive spacers) then fill the gap with papercrete. In this version, ferrocrete might be used as the outer shell with plain lath on the inner layer to keep the papercrete dry while still allowing it to breathe. A papercrete mix could then be sprayed over the inner lath for aesthetics.
Both methods appear workable within Sketchup, but again, one can violate a lot of physical laws within Sketchup.
Another question I had for those more knowledgeable on building codes is whether or not a vault that used a load-bearing ferrocrete frame might get approved in jurisdictions where a pure papercrete structure wouldn't (yet).
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
__._,_.___
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
Re: [papercreters] I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters
Sent from my iPad
Hi Andy
I just got back from an extended road trip and going through the full
inbox I ran across this. I guess all the other moderators were on
holiday too, most new members get approved quickly. Come to think of it,
that may be because I normally keep an eye out for new posts.
One of my experiments might relate to your questions. There is a video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbBxpDTFduc
that shows bottles going into papercrete. The panels I made are about 8"
thick, and have three layers of bottles in them. I didn't fill the
bottles since I want the air space as extra insulation. Strength wise, I
don't see much difference, especially in an application with compression
loads. While you're in my channel, check out other papercrete related
videos. You might see a little on my underground earthship project, too.
Just letting paper/cardboard sit in water isn't going to do it. Most
folks do a little pre-soak before mixing, but I normally don't. In a
mixer the paper seems to get wet quickly. Cardboard is another matter
and folks who use it say that pre-soak is essential. Drying time is tied
to temperature, humidity, and air circulation. Three months seems like
plenty of time for most blocks as long as they are kept out of the rain
and have plenty of air circulation. There is a lot to be said for using
green blocks. They adhere to each other and/or mortar better than dry
blocks do.
You can cut papercrete blocks with a table saw. Judith did a lot of
block trimming to embed them in a slip formed wall, and she can fill you
in with more details. For more uniformity without having to trim, you
can compress the papercrete into your mold.
You don't really want your blocks to be smooth, you want to leave a
little tooth for your finish coat to adhere properly. That way you won't
need wire or lath.
spaceman
On 1/9/2013 3:25 AM, andytulip40 wrote:
> Hi joined the group today having googled my way through information on papercreting.
>
> I am looking at utilising my domestic waste output (as a new years resolution) I live in the UK and want to reduce the number of large recycle bins outside my house. I want to absorb all waste aside from garden and food waste.
>
> I intend to make papercrete blocks. However this blocks will be thicker than usual blocks as i want to use cans and bottles (glass and plastic) inside. The cans and bottles will absorb waste such a wrappings, packaging. These will then be earth rammed with ssoil/sand from the garden to provide bulk and strength.
>
> The paper and cardboard will then be used to from a papercrete shell aroung the plastic bottles/metal cans. The advantages of this method are that it will
>
> a)utilise all of my non organic doemestic waste (more recycled than paper
> b) offset the amount of papercrete needed and therefore cement required
>
> I have several questions which i hope some of you guys may be able to help me with
>
> 1) I intend to build a standard block What is the minium thickness i could get away with for strength.
> The standard concrete block in UK is 440mm wide, 210mm high and has a thickness of 100mm. This will absorb all pet botttles, cans, soft drinks/beers cans which take up 60mm allowing 20mm thickness of papercrete. Is 20mm sufficient or will the blocks ned to be thicker than 100mm.
>
> 2) having analysed my waste i have more cardboard than paper. Is is possible to have a mix of say 60% cardboard, 40% paper?
>
> 3) i have a dedicated wheelie bin for my pulp. Is it best to add water first allowing paper to pulp over time and absorb water or just do the pulping process in one go.
>
> 4) It is the middle of winter now. How long will it take for blocks to dry inside a cold non heated garage. I intend to start building in March when I have a supply of blocks, weather and daylight on my side, will 2 months drying be sufficient?
>
> 5) I want a uniformed block with straight edges on all sides. looking at pictures of blocks from molds they look a bit wavy. has any of you guys tried cutting papercrete? I would prefer a benchsaw, not handheld as i want a perfect straight cut. Can anyone recommend an appropriate one.
>
> 6) The finish, ideally a smooth tidy finish as this will be on show. When molding the blocks is is wise to apply a primer, of some sort to the finished side so that it comes out of the mold smooth.
>
>
> Apologies for my many questions, but i am taking this project quite seriously. In return if any of you guys needs help or advice in reccling tyres and building with earth rammed tyres i could be you man. i have worked with tyres since 2009 and dug an underground earthship in my garden. Tyres are a great building tool if you have space but are simply too big and rounded to create a finsish without lots of rendering. It is also very labour intensive ramming a tyre properly.
> I got into papercrete from this perspective and can offer lots of advice. Alas my mrs (not a big fan of recycling has banned me from tyres, so I have had to come up with something else.
>
> I appreciate anyones input on my questions as it will hopefully save me many weeks in experimenting.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6023 - Release Date: 01/10/13
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>
>
__._,_.___
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
