Re: [papercreters] Re: Slip Form Follow-up Question

This is good stuff. here in Michigan we never know what the weather will do. I have four inch concrete wire, chicken wire, hog panels and a whole large roll of shade cloth. Just did a collection of junk around my five acres that when put together will make a very fine 250 gallon towable mixer. Now I could use any available info on making a 24" S shaped blade. I like the idea of an S shaped blade and that is the only thing I have not found laying around YET. Alan in Michigan --- On Tue, 7/24/12, liberty1_27606 <liberty1@gmail.com> wrote: From: liberty1_27606 <liberty1@gmail.com> Subject: [papercreters] Re: Slip Form Follow-up Question To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 24, 2012, 2:47 PM Dan, (From reading others experience, not personal experience.) To get the quick drying time, you will need to make small blocks.  Maybe no more than 3 inches thick. You will not be able to dry your roof elements in time, so to get the prototype built, you will need to use 2x4s, fiberglass insulation, tin roofing, etc for the roof.  I hope to build a papercrete roof system, so I think that is possible, but it will require lengthy drying time. I believe small blocks would work for the floor and walls.  I believe that the floor would not be walkable, but could provide the R value you need.  Maybe you could put down temporary boards to walk on when loading and unloading the kiln. To improve the drainage from PC blocks, some people use shade cloth on the ground and then put the blocks on top.  I would suggest trying 6" welded wire mesh, topped with 1" welded wire mesh, topped with two layers of shade cloth. (If you try something to improve drainage and drying, please let us know how it works. I am in a humid environment also and need to work out a way to dry blocks.) Good luck. Please let us know what you try and what your results are. Bobby --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "trendawareness" <trendlinesystems@...> wrote: > > In response to my earlier questions, the slip-forming proponents have indicated that it's the only way to make large blocks or wall units in a humid environment. > > My understanding is that a slip-formed wall unit will be usable within a day or two after the final layer has been poured. > > With that said, I've started to assemble some framework for my wall panels that I'll fill-in with papercrete using slip-forming techniques.  > > But my project also requires highly insulated 5' L x 5' W x 1' H horizontally oriented panels. > > My question is, being in a humid environment, what's the best way to make a large, horizontal, papercrete component?    > > Can I make them vertically using slip-forming techniques then roll it horizontally?  > > If so, do I need to wait several weeks for the unit to dry, or being slip formed, can a unit be placed horizontally after a few days? > > Thanks > > Dan > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com     papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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[papercreters] Re: slip form vs fast dry

>>could you just go ahead and pour lots of smaller blocks?<<

Yes, in fact that would be my preference as small blocks are a lot more flexible than wall panels, especially when you're building a prototype of something and the dimensions might have to be changed.

>>i'll dig up a pic and send it to you<<

I got them thank you!

I don't have a sheet of glass, but a do have some sheets of clear Suntuff.

Dan


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Charmaine Taylor <charmainertaylor@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dan, if the thicker panels you want won't be dry in time < 4 weeks
> then could you just go ahead and pour lots of smaller blocks?
>
> In Oregon at Lost Valley community they made pump house blocks on the
> ground, slightly elevated on screens or scrap wood I think, enough to get
> air to flow under, and then laid cement blocks with sheets of glass over to
> hurry the drying with solar help.
>
> with a stack of thick vertical panels you'd have the bottom being wet the
> longest as the water drains
>
> I made 4' long x 16" wide by 4" thick panels by pouring wet slurry onto
> wire bakery trays* lined in newspaper sheets, and dried in the sun. ( with
> glass over top, it rested on the edge of the plastic coated frame I cut
> them into the size blocks I wants while still a bit green, and they
> dried faster with the cut ends exposed too. they dried in less than 4
> weeks, and it is never very sunny here so we have foggy weather, limited
> sun, cool summers. it is the thickness that will slow down curing.
>
> sandwiching thinner panels together will give 12" thick
>
> these are plastic coated wire units meant to transport bread loaves in
> delivery trucks, they are open on the ends ( which I blocked with scrap
> wood pieces) having an open frame form helped dry them too, as the
> newspaper wicked water away, and dried in the sun where a plywood form
> would hold water longer
>
> i'll dig up a pic and send it to you
> --
> Charmaine Taylor/Publishing & Elk River Press
> PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534
> www.papercrete.com
>
> When injustice becomes law, then Rebellion becomes duty!
> ~~~Thomas Jefferson
> Support & defend our immigration laws
>



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[papercreters] Re: Slip Form Follow-up Question

Dan,

(From reading others experience, not personal experience.)

To get the quick drying time, you will need to make small blocks. Maybe no more than 3 inches thick.

You will not be able to dry your roof elements in time, so to get the prototype built, you will need to use 2x4s, fiberglass insulation, tin roofing, etc for the roof. I hope to build a papercrete roof system, so I think that is possible, but it will require lengthy drying time.

I believe small blocks would work for the floor and walls. I believe that the floor would not be walkable, but could provide the R value you need. Maybe you could put down temporary boards to walk on when loading and unloading the kiln.

To improve the drainage from PC blocks, some people use shade cloth on the ground and then put the blocks on top. I would suggest trying 6" welded wire mesh, topped with 1" welded wire mesh, topped with two layers of shade cloth. (If you try something to improve drainage and drying, please let us know how it works. I am in a humid environment also and need to work out a way to dry blocks.)

Good luck. Please let us know what you try and what your results are.

Bobby

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "trendawareness" <trendlinesystems@...> wrote:
>
> In response to my earlier questions, the slip-forming proponents have indicated that it's the only way to make large blocks or wall units in a humid environment.
>
> My understanding is that a slip-formed wall unit will be usable within a day or two after the final layer has been poured.
>
> With that said, I've started to assemble some framework for my wall panels that I'll fill-in with papercrete using slip-forming techniques.
>
> But my project also requires highly insulated 5' L x 5' W x 1' H horizontally oriented panels.
>
> My question is, being in a humid environment, what's the best way to make a large, horizontal, papercrete component?
>
> Can I make them vertically using slip-forming techniques then roll it horizontally?
>
> If so, do I need to wait several weeks for the unit to dry, or being slip formed, can a unit be placed horizontally after a few days?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
>




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[papercreters] slip form vs fast dry

Hi Dan,  if the thicker panels you want won't be dry in time < 4 weeks then  could you just go ahead and pour lots of smaller blocks?

In Oregon at Lost Valley community they  made pump house blocks on the ground,  slightly elevated on screens or scrap wood I think,  enough to get air to flow under, and then laid cement blocks with sheets of glass over to hurry the drying with solar help.

with a stack of thick vertical panels you'd  have the bottom being wet the longest as the water drains

I made 4' long x 16" wide by 4" thick panels  by pouring wet slurry onto wire bakery trays* lined  in newspaper sheets, and dried in the sun. ( with glass over top, it rested on the edge of the plastic coated frame  I cut them into   the size blocks I wants while still a bit green, and they dried  faster with the  cut ends exposed too.   they dried in less than 4 weeks, and it is never very sunny here so we have foggy weather, limited sun, cool summers.   it is the thickness that will slow down curing.

sandwiching  thinner panels together will give 12" thick

these are plastic coated  wire units meant to transport bread loaves in delivery trucks, they  are open on the ends ( which I blocked with scrap wood pieces)   having an open frame form helped dry them too, as the newspaper wicked water away, and dried in the sun where a  plywood form would hold water longer

i'll dig up a pic and send it to you
--
Charmaine Taylor/Publishing & Elk River Press
PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534
www.papercrete.com
 
When injustice becomes law, then Rebellion becomes duty!
~~~Thomas Jefferson
Support & defend our immigration laws

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[papercreters] Re: Slip Form Follow-up Question

>>it sounds like you are wanting to make it then move it<<

Yes. Let me start from the beginning.

I'm working on a prototype DIY heater design. Think of it as an insulated kiln, but no flame and 160F max.

I'd like to use papercrete in order to keep my material costs low, my recycled content high, and because it can be molded, cut, built up, etc.

I need to construct four 5' x 5' walls with a minium R-value of 24. There's a lot of tolerances in my design, so the walls can be made from small blocks, large blocks, or as modular units.

I also need to construct a R-24 "top" and a R-12 "floor".

The heater won't be mobile, but it's not being built in-situ, and as a prototype, I expect to assemble and disassemble it several times.

I had really hoped to be able to construct the insulated shell out of large PC blocks. But my first test blocks have been a disappointment. Part of the problem was the ground and tarp on which I had poured them, but I also think the high humidity where I live is another factor.

So, I'm now considering building the walls as units using slip forming or PC-filled frames. But they will have to be movable and I hoped to be able to finish them by mid-August so I can have a working prototype by fall.

>> but it takes months to dry all the way if you are making it 12" thick. <<

That's what I was afraid of. While my walls don't have to be 12" thick, nor built as a single layer, but I need usable blocks/panels in about 4 weeks.

While I think PC would still work, if not the best overal material, I suspect I'm asking too much from it in too little time.

So unless someone has some other tips or tricks, I may have to opt for conventional materials this time and re-visit the PC at a later date.

Dan


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dan,
> If you got the impression that you could only use slip-forming to make your structure in a humid environment, I apologize for being misunderstood.  All the methods will work, all will take a long time to dry, and from your question it sounds like you are wanting to make it then move it.  Using any method, it will take weeks to dry enough to move safely (without damage to the papercrete).  Is the "wall unit" you speak of going to be moved often or just once to get in in-situ? Are you making more than one 5'X5'X1' horizontal "highly insulated" panel?  Do these have to move also?  You can do what you suggested with your horizontal panel, build it vertically, then lay it over on its side.  Slip-forming gets rid of some of the steps and leaves a fairly uniform end product, but it takes months to dry all the way if you are making it 12" thick.
> Hope this helps.
> Ron



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Re: [papercreters] Slip Form Follow-up Question

Hi Dan,

If you got the impression that you could only use slip-forming to make your structure in a humid environment, I apologize for being misunderstood.  All the methods will work, all will take a long time to dry, and from your question it sounds like you are wanting to make it then move it.  Using any method, it will take weeks to dry enough to move safely (without damage to the papercrete).  Is the "wall unit" you speak of going to be moved often or just once to get in in-situ? Are you making more than one 5'X5'X1' horizontal "highly insulated" panel?  Do these have to move also?  You can do what you suggested with your horizontal panel, build it vertically, then lay it over on its side.  Slip-forming gets rid of some of the steps and leaves a fairly uniform end product, but it takes months to dry all the way if you are making it 12" thick.

Hope this helps.

Ron

---

From: trendawareness <trendlinesystems@gmail.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:46 AM
Subject: [papercreters] Slip Form Follow-up Question

 

In response to my earlier questions, the slip-forming proponents have indicated that it's the only way to make large blocks or wall units in a humid environment.

My understanding is that a slip-formed wall unit will be usable within a day or two after the final layer has been poured.

With that said, I've started to assemble some framework for my wall panels that I'll fill-in with papercrete using slip-forming techniques.

But my project also requires highly insulated 5' L x 5' W x 1' H horizontally oriented panels.

My question is, being in a humid environment, what's the best way to make a large, horizontal, papercrete component?

Can I make them vertically using slip-forming techniques then roll it horizontally?

If so, do I need to wait several weeks for the unit to dry, or being slip formed, can a unit be placed horizontally after a few days?

Thanks

Dan

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RE: [papercreters] OK...dumb question...

Just a note about papercrete in wet environments. I live in high and dry NM so do not have to worry about humidity. A few years ago (6 I think) I added a sort of salt box shed thing to my other shed. I used some papercrete blocks as a sort of foundation thinking it would be very temporary. Well I took that shed down a couple of years ago but left the blocks. The original shed is still there and the rain pours off the roof on top of the blocks. They get a little soft when wet but I see no mold or anything. These were some of the first blocks I made and had more cement than I use now so maybe that's why they are staying so nice.



Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith

---

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 08:09:07 -0600
Subject: Re: [papercreters] OK...dumb question...

 

Excellent point. Newspaper is different from office paper which is way different from cardboard boxes. I use a wide variety of mixes according to the final purpose of the pc.

I think the point being made here is that pc will work with lots of variation in mix. Nothing to stress over unless you are trying to use pc in a structural situation. Since pc is normally used in thick walls the thickness usually makes up for concerns about compressive strength.

On 7/22/2012 7:57 AM, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

Once you start working with it,   you get a real feel for how it will mix, as all paper is not created equal.  

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