Friday, June 3, 2011

RE: [papercreters] Rookie mixer? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from JUDITH WILLIAMS included below]

So you don't put any cement or clay in your mix? What are you building? I made a bunch of blocks one time and forgot to put cement in. They were so nice and fluffy and light. I eventually used them in a slip form wall but would not use them exclusively. And I would think that with your rainfall they would disintegrate quickly.

It would be interesting to do a slip form building with just the paper and water then use the int. and ext plaster to provide the water resistance and some strength.

I have just put down a paperadobe subfloor. I think I started it about 2 weeks ago and finished it yesterday. My truck was broken down for a while which set me back. Well anyway, it is taking a long time to harden up. I know it takes a lot longer for clay than cement but I'm not used to having to wait this long. Even the part that is 2 weeks old is still squishy, although it seems to be improving. I will be taking a workshop with Carole Crews in Taos next month on plaster and mud floors so want to be ready to hit the ground running when I get back.



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To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: huon@intas.net.au
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 13:46:59 +1000
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Rookie mixer?

 
Papercrete is simple, which is why I like it, so keep the method simple.
Use what is available as papercrete is so versatile.

I use my trusty cement mixer sitting alongside an old bath tub. While I'm
working on other projects in the back yard I chuck a heap of paper and
water in the mixer and just let it rotate. I use about a tight 2" stack
of catalogues to a mixer of water. This allows the fibres to be teased
apart rather than being cut or broken and gives an amasingly strong end
product. As the paper is a very wet mix the mixer takes very little power
to keep it turning. I find the wetter the mix the better the fibre
separation into pulp.

I just pour each mix into the bathtub as it's ready. The pulp settles to
the lower half of the water. As the pulp is poured into one end of the
bath the excess water flows out the other end and can be recycled into the
next mix. The bath effectively acts as a slow version of a thicknesser in
a production factory. The resulting pulp mix is scooped out by the
bucketfull as required depending on the project at hand. It is handy to
have a continual supply of pulp for my constant experimenting. Just scoop
and use.

No other aditives are required to make a solid product. As paper is
basicaly wood fibres and clay the finished product comes out as hard as
wood and more rigid than LDF. I pour into molds to make bricks and
decorative panels for interior use and areas protected from rain. I gave
up trying to find a PC mix that will last well in the rain as the 200+
rain days per year we have seems to be just to wet for PC. It pays to
mention however that not adding sand or cement allows more shrinkage,
hence the precast nature of my work.

Wayne

>
> Some have used plaster mixing blades chucked into a drill as a
> mixer. You will probably want to soak your paper well,
> even shred it if possible or at least tear it into strips.
>
> Another simple mixer is made by taking a couple of strips of metal
> maybe 1"x6", crossing them in an "X" and drilling a hole at the
> intersection. Then these strips are bolted onto a piece of threaded
> rod or welded to a rod, which is chucked into a drill. There is a
> picture of something similar here on Amazon.
>
> Both of these work and will give you a decent workout in the
> process.
>
> The best place to read about papercrete is the archives of this
> group, the photo section, and the links. The links will take you to
> other papercrete resources.
> spaceman All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change
> without notice upon receipt of new information.
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net blog at
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net/wordpress/
> On 6/3/2011 7:29 PM, Jack Coats wrote: Is there something
> like a 5 gallon mixer that would do if using newspaper? Yes, I am an
> uber-rookie. If you can point me to various places to read I would
> be appreciated rather than waste bandwidth on this list.
> ------------------------------------
>



Attachment(s) from JUDITH WILLIAMS

1 of 1 Photo(s)


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Re: [papercreters] Rookie mixer?

Papercrete is simple, which is why I like it, so keep the method simple.
Use what is available as papercrete is so versatile.

I use my trusty cement mixer sitting alongside an old bath tub. While I'm
working on other projects in the back yard I chuck a heap of paper and
water in the mixer and just let it rotate. I use about a tight 2" stack
of catalogues to a mixer of water. This allows the fibres to be teased
apart rather than being cut or broken and gives an amasingly strong end
product. As the paper is a very wet mix the mixer takes very little power
to keep it turning. I find the wetter the mix the better the fibre
separation into pulp.

I just pour each mix into the bathtub as it's ready. The pulp settles to
the lower half of the water. As the pulp is poured into one end of the
bath the excess water flows out the other end and can be recycled into the
next mix. The bath effectively acts as a slow version of a thicknesser in
a production factory. The resulting pulp mix is scooped out by the
bucketfull as required depending on the project at hand. It is handy to
have a continual supply of pulp for my constant experimenting. Just scoop
and use.

No other aditives are required to make a solid product. As paper is
basicaly wood fibres and clay the finished product comes out as hard as
wood and more rigid than LDF. I pour into molds to make bricks and
decorative panels for interior use and areas protected from rain. I gave
up trying to find a PC mix that will last well in the rain as the 200+
rain days per year we have seems to be just to wet for PC. It pays to
mention however that not adding sand or cement allows more shrinkage,
hence the precast nature of my work.

Wayne

>
> Some have used plaster mixing blades chucked into a drill as a
> mixer. You will probably want to soak your paper well,
> even shred it if possible or at least tear it into strips.
>
> Another simple mixer is made by taking a couple of strips of metal
> maybe 1"x6", crossing them in an "X" and drilling a hole at the
> intersection. Then these strips are bolted onto a piece of threaded
> rod or welded to a rod, which is chucked into a drill. There is a
> picture of something similar here on Amazon.
>
> Both of these work and will give you a decent workout in the
> process.
>
> The best place to read about papercrete is the archives of this
> group, the photo section, and the links. The links will take you to
> other papercrete resources.
> spaceman All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change
> without notice upon receipt of new information.
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net blog at
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net/wordpress/
> On 6/3/2011 7:29 PM, Jack Coats wrote: Is there something
> like a 5 gallon mixer that would do if using newspaper? Yes, I am an
> uber-rookie. If you can point me to various places to read I would
> be appreciated rather than waste bandwidth on this list.
> ------------------------------------
>


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Re: [papercreters] Rookie mixer?



Some have used plaster mixing blades chucked into a drill as a mixer. You will probably want to soak your paper well, even shred it if possible or at least tear it into strips.

Another simple mixer is made by taking a couple of strips of metal maybe 1"x6", crossing them in an "X" and drilling a hole at the intersection. Then these strips are bolted onto a piece of threaded rod or welded to a rod, which is chucked into a drill. There is a picture of something similar here on Amazon.

Both of these work and will give you a decent workout in the process.

The best place to read about papercrete is the archives of this group, the photo section, and the links. The links will take you to other papercrete resources.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  http://Starship-Enterprises.Net blog at http://Starship-Enterprises.Net/wordpress/

On 6/3/2011 7:29 PM, Jack Coats wrote:
Is there something like a 5 gallon mixer that would do if using newspaper?  Yes, I am an uber-rookie.  If you can point me to various places to read I would be appreciated rather than waste bandwidth on this list.   ------------------------------------  


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[papercreters] Rookie mixer?

Is there something like a 5 gallon mixer that would do if using newspaper?

Yes, I am an uber-rookie. If you can point me to various places to read
I would be appreciated rather than waste bandwidth on this list.


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[papercreters] When to add cement



I have tried adding the cement at different times during the mixing process. At first I added it to the water as I was filling the tank. I think this worked very well to completely dissolve the cement. At that time I was using newspapers exclusively so it didn't take much time for the paper to mulch up and mix with the cement. After the tank developed mega leaks I waited until after the paper was totally mulched before adding the cement. It seemed to me that the cement must have been leaking out of the tank and I didn't want to waste any.

The mulched paper seals the leaks so now I mulch that paper before adding the cement.


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To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: criswells.ok@sbcglobal.net
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 21:40:30 +0000
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design

 


Joy I will have to differ with you on the run off. After I have poured
my PC and it does not make any difference what formula I am using, "
i.e. clay, sand additions of just paper and cement." The run off is
always the same, just clear or almost clear water. I have never seen
cement or clay colored water leave my PC. It always amazes me that it
does that. I have worked with concrete for many years if if you get too
much water in the mix the run off is is cement colored, but not with PC,
and I always start with soaked wet paper pulp then add the cement and
mix well and then if I want any other additives I add them last.

BOB

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Joy Pickens <lilyklink@...> wrote:
>
> Great wrap up Judith, and Johan, thanks for the tech details. On the
chance of
> being redundant, I will back what Johan says, try to use the least
amount of
> water you can and not have to drain any away, at least after the
cement has been
> added, cuz everything that drains off after the cement has been added
is the
> strength of your finished product being compromised and running off as
waste, I
> mean anyone can see that the runnoff is NOT pure water.
>
> Joy in OK
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: JUDITH WILLIAMS williams_judith@...
> To: papercreters papercreters papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 9:25:38 AM
> Subject: RE: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design
>
> Â
> I appreciate this reasonable and clear explanation of the use of
cement in
> papercrete. I have to admit I haven't carefully read the technical
things that
> have appeared here. My eyes tend to glaze over at such things,
although I admit
> the information may be interesting (?). Anyway, I look at mixing
papercrete
> like making bread. If you have the basic things that make it what it
is then you
> can add and experiment all you want. Maybe it was here that you saw
cellulose
> insulation added to the mixer. It was quick and easy but would get
expensive if
> used all the time.
>
>
> At the risk of being redundant I must repeat - the beauty of
papercrete is it's
> elemental simplicity and inexpensiveness. For an $11 investment for a
bag of
> cement I can have a good portion of a wall. If I can't get cement or
can't
> afford it I can use clay soil. If can't get newspapers I can use
cardboard or
> junk mail from the post office.
>
>
>
> Follow progress on the new project at
http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog
>
> More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> From: Spaceman@...
> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 07:40:44 -0600
> Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design
>
> Â
> That was a nice question when it was asked (and answered) four years
ago. There
> are many papercrete mixes depending on how the papercrete is to be
used, and the
> preferences of the person mixing. Many recipes are in the archives and
the files
> section. Folks have experimented with lime and with fly ash (slag)
with
> seemingly good results but afaik no testing has been done to determine
what
> effect, if any, these have on the final papercrete strength and
durability.
>
> Periodically we seem to get concrete folks on here who proceed to tell
us how we
> are doing it all wrong and you can't mix concrete like we do. Well,
the thing is
> that papercrete is NOT concrete and they are not very similar.
Papercrete often
> is used in a liquid state, thin enough to pump, and has no slump at
all. With
> concrete the amount of water is absolutely critical to the final
strength of the
> concrete. That does not apply to papercrete.
>
>
> Most often it is the mixer that is pulping the paper in a water bath.
You have
> to use enough water to mix, and then the bulk of the water is drained
off. The
> mixing methods used for concrete do not apply here. I have only seen
expensive
> cellulose insulation (dry fiber) used for papercrete once, and it was
simply
> dumped into the mixer along with water, cement, pumice, etc., and all
were mixed
> together. Normally this wet mix is put into forms or molds where the
extra water
> rapidly drains away, leaving a soft material that will finally develop
some
> firmness after a few minutes of draining. Molds can often be removed
within a
> few minutes of filling. Depending on the thickness, the mix, the
temperature,
> the wind, this material may take days or weeks to dry out and become
hard.
>
> A few weeks ago I looked at trying some cellulose insulation in a
concrete mixer
> but backed off when I realized the final product would cost more than
$10 a
> cubic foot. Not to mention that buying a product like that would
negate the
> green/recycling aspect of using paper destined for the landfill. If
there were a
> cheap source of pulverized paper then it would be possible to mix with
less
> water, but exact ratios could be thrown off by humidity since paper
absorbs
> moisture well. There might be a wide range of water content that would
be
> mixable since the fibers are absorbent. I think papercrete mixes are
like
> cooking - recipes are a starting guide but need to be adjusted for
real
> conditions.
>
>
>
> spaceman
>
> All opinions expressed or implied
> are subject to change without notice
> upon receipt of new information.
>
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net blog at
> http://Starship-Enterprises.Net/wordpress/
> On 6/3/2011 5:59 AM, Johan wrote:
> Hi everybody, nice question folks. A good method in concrete
mixing to obtain
> consistency is the slump test whereby a prismatic shape tin container
without a
> bottom is filled with the concrete/pc mix. The tin is then
removed upwards and
> the height of the material that it has slumped to is measured.Â
This is then
> recorded and compared to the height of the tin as a percentage
including the
> details of this particular mix i.e. cement type and brand and possible
batch #
> in one column with amount used by volume or weight. The next
column contains
> type of sand/paper used and preferably weighed dry. Record the
amount of water
> used because too much water weakens the strength of the concrete/pc.
 I have the
> details somewhere and will post it as soon as I have found it, but the
point is
> that even if there is no current standards for pc you can record your
own slump
> heights results for own use. The point of the exercise is to
obtain consistency
> and being able to record your experiments with various mixes for
different
> applications.
> >Just another point of interest is that the addition of slaked lime
(not
> >agricultural lime) will give the mix a nice buttery working
consistency and it
> >will strengthen the material more over a longer period after the
cement has
> >reached it full strength.Â
> >
> >Slag cement also increases strength after Portland cement has stopped
but for
> >all these additives you must remember it does not reach its maximum
strength as
> >fast as when you did not use it. Â It needs time as in years to
develop full
> >strength.
> >When concrete is mixed in a drum mixer, the stone is added first,
then follows
> >some of the measured amount of water just to coat the stone followed
by the
> >cement and then only the sand and final water left over. I would
assume that
> >the dry paper is shredded first followed by some water, then the
cement followed
> >by final water allocated for the mix. Please inform me if it is
different.Â
> >Finally I apologies for any incorrect English since it is not my home
language.
> >Regards
> >Johan Van Tonder
> >Â
> >
> >Â
> >
> >
>




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RE: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design



I agree. And I have always been surprised by how clear the water that comes out is. I don't think there is much cement in the water but I don't know how you would measure it.



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To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: yakishome@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 23:41:31 +0000
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design

 
Bob this seems to have been our experience as well. The higher the wall goes up the product that comes out of that water will only be absorbed by the wall below giving it more strength.

Doris and Ron




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[papercreters] Re: Papercrete mix design

Bob this seems to have been our experience as well. The higher the wall goes up the product that comes out of that water will only be absorbed by the wall below giving it more strength.

Doris and Ron

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