Sunday, May 4, 2008

[papercreters] Good morning everyone,

I am excited to be here and learn from you all about papercrete. For
sometime I've looked for a way to build that can be done by myself if
need be. Never builded my own house before but have worked in the
construction trade for sometime now. I'm sure I have seen some of you
on the youtube videos and have recently bought Judith Williams CD as
she is a great example for me. I am going for a trip to New Mexico
tomorrow to check out what it will take to drill a well, etc. on land I
have purchased (at the moment I live in Calif). When I return I am very
sure I'll be spending a lot of time reading through the emails and
archives here and posting questions. Till then take very good care, Ev


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[papercreters] Papercrete Gone Wild!

Hi everyone,
 
I haven't posted for awhile, haven't been too active with papercrete for a bit,  but starting to get back into it now.
 
Have had a couple of less than successful mixing experiences here on my first two 'getting back into it' go arounds.
 
The first mix I used clay to save on my Portland while experimenting with making a panel to use as a roof section for animal shades.  I used more clay than I did the last time I made a batch of this stuff (last summer) and all went well until after it was poured and setting up - which takes longer with clay.  I have two Border Collie pups who thought my wet slab was great fun to play on.  So I ended up cutting it into blocks and will use for filler as needed.  Too much clay, didn't look like it was going to work for what I wanted anyway.  That batch is on YouTube, by the way, if anyone wants to see it.  No shots of it post-Borders though.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPno5gWBWqE
 
Today my daughter and I made a new batch using Portland.  I'd just put the cement in and was topping off the water when I found out I forgot to put a block under the back of my tow mixer and I hadn't hitched it up to my truck yet either, next thing I know the tongue was flying straight up towards the sky and there was a very loud splash!  So much for saving on that Portland! 
 
But that's not all.  I should've stopped while I was ahead.  So I got the block and tried putting it under the back of the mixer and it didn't want to fit and I didn't take the time to dig down a bit and make it fit, I just stuck it under my drain pipe out the back on the bottom thinking that'll keep it from flipping over backwards.  We get all the newspapers back into it, more Portland, more sand, more water,  next thing I know, pop!, and my tank is bent in and my drain pipe thing is facing upwards, and dripping.  Well we figured we'd better get this batch made up quick (before my drain thing shot out the back of the tank) and off we went up the street hoping it held and we wouldn't end up leaving a big trail of papercrete up the street and back.  We made it back and it held until I tried to open it (the cap screws in) and the whole thing came out in one piece.  No biggy really, I can fix it easy enough with a hammer and some Bondo.
 
So I poured this batch behind another gate, in my back yard, so that my Borders couldn't play on this one.  It was looking pretty good, I pulled the form after awhile and checked on it now and then in the dark as I made my rounds.  I had thought my goats (3 of them) wouldn't mess with it but sure enough there were deep goat hoof prints in my slab. I managed to smoosh it around enough to fill them back in and hopefully now they know they're not supposed to walk on it... maybe I'll get lucky. 
 
Anyway, just thought I'd share.  Can't really share this stuff with non-papercreters, they wouldn't really appreciate it or even know what the heck I was talking about.
 
Terry in AZ
 
 
 
 
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Saturday, May 3, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

Thanks Spaceman!  That rocks!  <HUGE grin>
 
So the challenge is to find a material you can line the plywood with that will hold the papercrete in place and allow the water to drain out quickly . . . Mesh held in place by one of those draining floor mats maybe . . . The plywood will hold the mesh from bulging and the draining mat will allow the water to pour out unrestricted . . . Maybe concrete lath would do the same job . . . ?  The mesh will keep the papercrete from integrating into the mat or lath.
 
ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Spaceman
 
ElfNori wrote:
Most excellent! 
 
Question . . . why did you use plywood on one side?  Why not mesh on both?  Or something pourous on both?
Because! It just evolved that way, sorta. The dome was already in place with a 4' gap below it, supported by a ring of bus seats. The mesh was wired on the inside, and the plywood was easier than fabricating a support frame for outside mesh. The mesh side was not very smooth, with the mesh just wired into place around the edges. It sagged and bulged so the wall is way thicker than 14" in places. The plywood side was a sort of slip form, a 4x4 plywood wired into place and then braced with pipes staked into the ground. This gave a smooth outside and a "sculptured" inside surface. This was only for the Molly (ringwall), the top portion of the dome will be slip formed against the papercrete panels that are already there.

If/when I do it again, I'll go ahead and fabricate frames covered with mesh as a two sided slip form.
 
2nd question . . . how much did it shrink and in which direction?  Do you have pictures?
I didn't measure the shrinkage, but of course there was some in all directions. I posted a picture at the time, http://www.nurl.us/7x3 and a flash slideshow at http://www.nurl.us/7x4. The flash slideshow is in 3D Anaglyph format, so you need red/cyan glasses to see it properly. The blue tubes sticking through the plywood are part of the solar hydronic heating system that is embedded in the 2" concrete slab that floats on 10" of papercrete.
 
3rd question . . . did you pre-drain the mix before you bucketed it into your form?
No, wet mix right out of the no-tow mixer. I used various trash including some bamboo, along with mostly newspapers. The bamboo didn't pulp but sure added lots of long fiber reinforcement.
 
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Re: [papercreters] Pulp production



ElfNori wrote:

Most excellent! 
 
Question . . . why did you use plywood on one side?  Why not mesh on both?  Or something pourous on both?
Because! It just evolved that way, sorta. The dome was already in place with a 4' gap below it, supported by a ring of bus seats. The mesh was wired on the inside, and the plywood was easier than fabricating a support frame for outside mesh. The mesh side was not very smooth, with the mesh just wired into place around the edges. It sagged and bulged so the wall is way thicker than 14" in places. The plywood side was a sort of slip form, a 4x4 plywood wired into place and then braced with pipes staked into the ground. This gave a smooth outside and a "sculptured" inside surface. This was only for the Molly (ringwall), the top portion of the dome will be slip formed against the papercrete panels that are already there.

If/when I do it again, I'll go ahead and fabricate frames covered with mesh as a two sided slip form.
 
2nd question . . . how much did it shrink and in which direction?  Do you have pictures?
I didn't measure the shrinkage, but of course there was some in all directions. I posted a picture at the time, http://www.nurl.us/7x3 and a flash slideshow at http://www.nurl.us/7x4. The flash slideshow is in 3D Anaglyph format, so you need red/cyan glasses to see it properly. The blue tubes sticking through the plywood are part of the solar hydronic heating system that is embedded in the 2" concrete slab that floats on 10" of papercrete.
 
3rd question . . . did you pre-drain the mix before you bucketed it into your form?
No, wet mix right out of the no-tow mixer. I used various trash including some bamboo, along with mostly newspapers. The bamboo didn't pulp but sure added lots of long fiber reinforcement.
 
This is SO exciting!
 
ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Spaceman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

The dome I was working on last fall was done with porous forms. I had stucco mesh on one side, and plywood on the other. Using a wet mix, I filled the forms with a bucket because my pump was out of commission.

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Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

Most excellent! 
 
Question . . . why did you use plywood on one side?  Why not mesh on both?  Or something pourous on both?
 
2nd question . . . how much did it shrink and in which direction?  Do you have pictures?
 
3rd question . . . did you pre-drain the mix before you bucketed it into your form?
 
This is SO exciting!
 
ElfN
----- Original Message -----
From: Spaceman
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

The dome I was working on last fall was done with porous forms. I had stucco mesh on one side, and plywood on the other. Using a wet mix, I filled the forms with a bucket because my pump was out of commission.

As far as I can tell there are no voids at all and I ended up with very solid 14" thick walls. There is no seam between layers. After removing the plywood in a few hours, the walls got hard in a couple of days, and I was able to peel off the mesh, leaving just papercrete.  Now that spring is here and the windy season should be just about over, I'll get back to pouring.

Spaceman

ElfNori wrote:
I'm clearing out my inbox and can't delete this without one more response . . .
 
I'm thinking the mix will settle better if I pump it into the porous form with all the water in it instead of draining it first.  I think the chance of voids in the papercrete will be less that way . . .
 
Mikey?   Based on your battery room experience, which would you recommend?
 
ElfN


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Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

The dome I was working on last fall was done with porous forms. I had stucco mesh on one side, and plywood on the other. Using a wet mix, I filled the forms with a bucket because my pump was out of commission.

As far as I can tell there are no voids at all and I ended up with very solid 14" thick walls. There is no seam between layers. After removing the plywood in a few hours, the walls got hard in a couple of days, and I was able to peel off the mesh, leaving just papercrete.  Now that spring is here and the windy season should be just about over, I'll get back to pouring.

Spaceman

ElfNori wrote:

I'm clearing out my inbox and can't delete this without one more response . . .
 
I'm thinking the mix will settle better if I pump it into the porous form with all the water in it instead of draining it first.  I think the chance of voids in the papercrete will be less that way . . .
 
Mikey?   Based on your battery room experience, which would you recommend?
 
ElfN
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Friday, May 2, 2008

Re: [papercreters] Pulp production, question for Mikey

I'm clearing out my inbox and can't delete this without one more response . . .
 
I'm thinking the mix will settle better if I pump it into the porous form with all the water in it instead of draining it first.  I think the chance of voids in the papercrete will be less that way . . .
 
Mikey?   Based on your battery room experience, which would you recommend?
 
ElfN
----- Original Message -----
 
I am excited about your project(s). I plan to do something similar soon and will learn from your experience.


To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: elf@elfnori.com
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:44:08 -0800
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Pulp production

You're absolutely right.  The downside is it's difficult to get plans to solidify because of all the possibilities.
 
I'm using in-place porous forms.  I need to be able to pour or pump the mix into my forms.  Alternately, I need to be able to drain the mix, then dump it into the forms.
 
ElfN
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