Saturday, November 30, 2013

[papercreters] highest R values of paperrete



   I've read on Living in Paper they have tested 3.01 per inch which is a mix that had sand in it. I'm thinking that would be the average range but thought I might ask if 3.5R or such is possible??? 


Jackie    

AIR entrainment is what will give the R value,sand and heavy additives will just offer mass..there is a trade off of  2' thick clay/adobe wall that soaks up sun, vs a 40" straw bale that keeps warmth in and cold out at R 50 both opposites.

the best of both is a fluffy papercrete very thick, but lightweight,where as  water evaporates air pockets remain.

in the cement/concrete world adding the  flyash and other air entrainment liquids ( to cause bubblers) lighten the cement and insulate better, again they seek the best of both.

i'd research how the cement/concrete makers do this for real info, as the PC world is all individual experiments without the   serious, rigorous testing. 

I've seen several articles on this type of insulating research online.
--
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Charmaine Taylor/Publishing & Elk River Press
PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534
www.papercrete.com

Robert Heinlein (1907-1988) "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." (Obamacare)

 


 
 



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Friday, November 29, 2013

[papercreters] highest levels of R values?



Hello I'm wondering if anyone here knows what is the highest level of R value one might get with papercrete per inch? I've read on Living in Paper they have tested  3.01 per inch which is a mix that had sand in it. I'm thinking that would be the average range but thought I might ask if 3.5R or such is possible???

 

Jackie



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Saturday, November 23, 2013

RE: RE: Re: [papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Hmm thanks for the imput!!! Yes I agree about testing this idea about the wood ash...if anyone else knows about tests or trials that have been done with wood ash mixed with cement power please let me know but I do plan to trial the idea. I'm thinking to build a above ground papercrete root cellar.

 

Jackie 



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RE: Re: [papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



The additive that is put in papercrete to replace part of the cement is fly ash.  It is so fine that it acts as a pozallan - an additive to cement that makes the cement more pliable and easier to spread.  The main reason is to reduce costs.


<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozzolan>


<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash>


I think we are confusing two groups of very different waste products.  Both clinker and fly ash are byproducts of coal combustion, but there the similarity ends.  Clinker ranges in size from that of a garden pea to chunks two feet long or more.  Fly ash is so small that it flies up the smokestack.  I believe the clinker acts like an aggregate in the usual cinder block.  The fly ash actually acts as a binder, like cement but not as strong.  The lucky happenstance is that up to 50% of the cement in a concrete mix can be replaced by fly ash without reducing the strength of the concrete.  While cement is inexpensive, fly ash is even cheaper.


Wood ash and rice hull ash are both the result of combustion of organic material.  Rice hulls are unique chemically and physically.  So we cannot assume the wood ash will have similar properties to rice hull ash.


You have an idea that is worth testing.  I believe that you cannot assume wood ash will have equal proprieties to rice hull ash.   I feel you should test and compare wood ash modified papercrete to "normal" papercrete and urge you not to use it for buildings for humans until you have tested it. 


Bobby



  



---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <rustaholic777@...> wrote:

Cinder Block was properly called cinder block.
For example, We used to have a coal fired power plant here in town so they had coal cinders. The Concrete Service is the company here that has been making blocks for a very long time. Back when they had free coal cinders they also made a line of lighter Cinder Blocks. They are a much darker gray color and weigh less. Anyone that looks at them should know the difference. Still way too many people even in books and on television are calling cement blocks by the wrong name.
Alan in Michigan



From: "domemancpf@..." <domemancpf@...>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 3:16 PM
Subject: [papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Hi Jackie !
Being old school cement block were called cinder block so i assume a good portion or the block was made from cinders= ash . Also ash is very alkaline like lime so chemically similar too . Best way is to try a small batch a see for yourself u may be pleasantly surprised ! Conrad


---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@...> wrote:

Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???
 
Jackie
 






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RE: [papercreters] Squirrels and Papercete! Who knew?



Somewhere in my photo archives (fancy name for bunch of unsorted pics) I have one of an extensive packrat house made of papercrete. Actually I have several smart packrats. One has a huge nest in my pile of blocks and another has a house he has designed himself down in the arroyo made out of scraps..


To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: slurryguy@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:16:56 -0800
Subject: [papercreters] Squirrels and Papercete! Who knew?

 
Look!  It's a Squirrel!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWTcRsqlKIg


Don't ask me questions about the video, I don't have any answers to give you.  I'm simply the guy that found the video on YouTube and shared it here.

I figure if nothing else, the video is good for a laugh.  It had me alternately both scratching my head in confusion and laughing.

My guess is that the ornament in the yard must be made from papercrete,  but I'm just guessing.

I think the squirrel fits right in as a Papercreter.  It helps to be a little NUTZ right?  I know it works for me.

Enjoy.  





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[papercreters] Squirrels and Papercete! Who knew?



Look!  It's a Squirrel!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWTcRsqlKIg


Don't ask me questions about the video, I don't have any answers to give you.  I'm simply the guy that found the video on YouTube and shared it here.

I figure if nothing else, the video is good for a laugh.  It had me alternately both scratching my head in confusion and laughing.

My guess is that the ornament in the yard must be made from papercrete,  but I'm just guessing.

I think the squirrel fits right in as a Papercreter.  It helps to be a little NUTZ right?  I know it works for me.

Enjoy.  




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Friday, November 22, 2013

Re: [papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Cinder Block was properly called cinder block.
For example, We used to have a coal fired power plant here in town so they had coal cinders. The Concrete Service is the company here that has been making blocks for a very long time. Back when they had free coal cinders they also made a line of lighter Cinder Blocks. They are a much darker gray color and weigh less. Anyone that looks at them should know the difference. Still way too many people even in books and on television are calling cement blocks by the wrong name.
Alan in Michigan



From: "domemancpf@yahoo.com" <domemancpf@yahoo.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 3:16 PM
Subject: [papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Hi Jackie !
Being old school cement block were called cinder block so i assume a good portion or the block was made from cinders= ash . Also ash is very alkaline like lime so chemically similar too . Best way is to try a small batch a see for yourself u may be pleasantly surprised ! Conrad


---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@...> wrote:

Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???
 
Jackie
 






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[papercreters] Re: screened wood ash added with cement?

Not sure if you were asking me, but they did not use coal ash in the old blocks, they used crushed clinker which is actually a rock / mineral byproduct left when the coal is burned not what we typically think of as ash.

- E

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@...> wrote:
>
> Yes I am planning on building a small dome crete chicken house this coming summer and I do want to try the wood ash idea as well. Even just cutting 10% to 20% would still save money. How high of coal ash have some used??
>
> Jackie
>
>
> ---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <domemancpf@> wrote:
>
> Hi Jackie !
> Being old school cement block were called cinder block so i assume a good portion or the block was made from cinders= ash . Also ash is very alkaline like lime so chemically similar too . Best way is to try a small batch a see for yourself u may be pleasantly surprised ! Conrad
>
>
>
> ---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@> wrote:
>
> Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???
>
> Jackie
>




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[papercreters] RE: RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Yes I am planning on building a small dome crete chicken house this coming summer and I do want to try the wood ash idea as well. Even just cutting 10% to 20% would still save money. How high of coal ash have some used??

 

Jackie 



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[papercreters] Re: screened wood ash added with cement?

Old school cement blockers use clinker (crushed coal ash) for aggregate, not wood ash. I think clinker has at least some pozzolans in it, which I don't believe wood does.

- E

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <domemancpf@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jackie !
> Being old school cement block were called cinder block so i assume a good portion or the block was made from cinders= ash . Also ash is very alkaline like lime so chemically similar too . Best way is to try a small batch a see for yourself u may be pleasantly surprised ! Conrad
>
>
>
> ---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@> wrote:
>
> Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???
>
> Jackie
>




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[papercreters] RE: screened wood ash added with cement?



Hi Jackie !

Being old school cement block were called cinder block so i assume a good portion or the block was made from cinders= ash . Also ash is very alkaline like lime so chemically similar too . Best way is to try a small batch a see for yourself u may be pleasantly surprised ! Conrad



---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <diggingfortreasure@...> wrote:

Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???

 

Jackie

 



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[papercreters] lime vs cement for crete??



Hello everyone!

 

I am wondering does anyone know if papercrete has been built the way they make hempcrete using lime instead of the cement? I'm thinking we would need to use shredded paper so the pulping stage could be by past?

 

A second question I have is about wood ash, is it possible to use screened wood ash to cut the cement powered the way fly ash is mentioned as being used? 

 

Jackie



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Monday, November 18, 2013

[papercreters] screened wood ash added with cement?



Here is another question I have about possibly cutting down on cement powered. I've read that some people add coal ash with the cement powered up to 1/3 without harm. Has anyone ever heard or tried using screened wood ash in the same way?? Does anyone think this could be possible without harming or weakening the papercrete???

 

Jackie

 



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Friday, November 15, 2013

Re: [papercreters] RE: geodesic papercrete dome cabin



If rice hulls  are available it would solve your weight concerns and once plastered it would be just as beautiful .


On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:11 PM, <diggingfortreasure@yahoo.ca> wrote:
 

Thanks for sharing these links from all your work!

 

 It's great to see a papercrete dome!!!! 

 

 I think you have made another good point about the shorter strut pieces. One of the goals behind my project is also to make the work simpler and physically light enough so women would be able to confidentially try to build this way. My father is a carpenter and my husband so I've been around many building projects. Now something I've begun to wonder about regarding the hows and the whys to the common methods we use for building today. It seems to me that our building are so heavy also because the building has to hold the weight of the materials as well as protect against the elements. 2ndly I think men unknowingly build to a level that their strength can easily handle. Yet there are so many people that don't have as much strength nor access to the money to build traditionally. I'm very hopeful that we can find ways to build easier and lighter to empower more women who might not have the strong helpers but have the will and brains to do it!

 

Jackie



---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <Spaceman@...> wrote:

I like higher frequency domes because they give shorter strut lengths. Here is one way of doing it -
http://www.starship-enterprises.net/Paperdome/

This is a 17' diameter frame, a bit smaller than what you want. The longest strut is only 41". It was purposely made small to fall under the 160sq.ft. shed law, to avoid a permit that would have needed an expensive engineer. Now if you do the math you see that it is a bit larger than 160sq.ft., more like 225. The owner gambled that the inspector wasn't great at math other than rectangles, and he was right :)

A few years later that dome came back to me because the guy sold his house and the buyers did not want it. I rebuilt it on a 3' stem wall, then came back and slip-formed papercrete on the outside of it, using those thin triangles as the inside of the form. I'm sitting in it now as I type this.

http://www.starship-enterprises.net/spraywasher/Index.html

My area gets even less rain than you do, and the last few years much less than what's normal for here. Thankfully we don't have much (if any) snow in the winter. Typically we may get one or two light snows that usually stick for less than a day. Some years are exceptions, though. A couple of years ago it was below freezing for a whole week, with snow and ice storms. That really shut things down, including the local electric utility. They had lots of burst pipes!

I definitely agree with making the pc light. You can always come back and plaster on a heavy top coat if you live in a rainy area. A good geodesic frame is amazingly strong, and if you do the papercrete right it would be self supporting, so you get double strength. I have never been one to throw sand or dirt into the mix, and the cement ratio varies depending on the use of the product.


On 11/11/2013 11:45 PM, diggingfortreasure@... wrote:

Thank-you for your reply!!

 

Yes I agree with you that the struts and hub connections would need to be stronger. I'm just thinking that basic style, but heavier steal and wooden cross pieces might work. As for the greenhouse and moisture that also is a very good point you have made. Where we live moisture is not such an issue and greenhouses become very dry since the natural moisture and rain is rather low 9 inches per summer but we do have long 6 month of winter with snow. 

 

I'm also thinking to make the paper mix as light as possible to get the highest R values because we live in northern Canada and get -40C winters and since there would be extra support from the geodesic frame if built heavy enough as you have pointed out.

 

 The straw bale domes in Israel are very, very interesting I must say. I will try to post a link to the readable site as well for you.

 

Jackie



---In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, <Spaceman@...> wrote:

I've been designing and building geodesics for about four decades, and I live in a papercrete dome.

I was not able to look at your youtube because I'm out in the boonies and my connection isn't good enough for that, but I checked out the links.

That dome frame you're considering doesn't look adequate to me. The struts appear to be 1x4" and are oriented the wrong way for any strength. The hub idea isn't bad but they make no mention of the gauge of the metal. The hardware appears to be the cheap galvanized type. I think their design would be fine for camping or a wedding pavilion. It might not be good for supporting much weight.

Most greenhouses I've been in are very humid. You should keep the moisture content of papercrete below about 18% to prevent mold, not to mention that the wetter your papercrete is, the heavier it is, and the weaker it is. You'll need to consider that in your design and provide a way to dehumidify your greenhouse cover. Humidity and moisture content are not the same thing, but if you keep papercrete in a high humidity environment then the moisture content is going to go up.

Good to see a fellow domehead here. If I can help with your project (free advice) I'll be happy to.

http://starship-enterprises.net/Papercrete/index.html
 
spaceman

On 11/11/2013 6:07 PM, diggingfortreasure@... wrote:

I'm glad that I see other people are thinking about the very, very same things as myself!

 

Here is my plan so far for a new design using papercrete. I'm wanting to use a geodesic frame the way they built using straw bales on the outside of the frame here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2NvnhLPBVM

 

However I'm thinking to use the hyperadobe mesh bags to hold the papercrete as the form as I see someone else here has also thought of. Now one more extra idea I've had is to then build a second larger geodesic dome greenhouse around the whole papercrete cabin similar to what this family is doing with their cob home.

http://inthralld.com/2012/10/norwegian-geodesic-dome-residence/

 

I'm thinking the dome greenhouse will help deal with the sealing water issues of the papercrete while creating a nice sheltered garden area. Lastly here is the hub system I'm thinking of using so far. http://domemade.co.uk/the-hub-system/

 

Because the geodesic frame will help with strength I'm thinking I could go very light on the sand and even use the min on cement, what do you all think on the mix ratio's I should consider for this? Right now I'm planning for the cabin to be 300sq ft with a half loft of 150sqft and the greenhouse shelter to possibly be up to a 40ft dome.

 

Jackie



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[papercreters] RE: geodesic papercrete dome cabin



A big thanks for sharing your links! It is so great to see a papercrete dome!!!

 

I agree about your point with the shorter struts as well.

 

thank-you again and looking far more forwards to my project now that I have found this group!

 

Jackie 



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