This discussion reminds me of another building technique -  Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF). This typically uses foam plastic forms with cross ties and rebar as part of the assembly before concrete is poured in.  There was some mention on the papercrete yahoo group in Sept of 2007 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/message/4166 .  But the discussion was more in terms of making the forms from papercrete.

Has anyone tried using papercrete in place of regular concrete with the ICF forms?  Guess you would have to use the stem wall for ground moisture isolation and figure out how to allow drainage when you add the papercrete. It would probably have good insulation and moisture control from the inside and outside.  (And not likely to be the inexpensive solution Overogypsy is seeking.) But it might be an interesting variation on typical ICF, papercrete could be less expensive than concrete to fill the forms, and combining with the post and beam construction might address the structural strength issues arising from using papercrete instead of concrete.

 

Tom Hay, Ph.D.
A2B Research and Development, LLC
703/672-6033 (internet phone)
tomhay@verizon.net

 

On 06/30/13, liberty1_27606<liberty1@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Gypsy,

(Not an expert, but maybe some will update my comments.)

Three reasons not to put blue board in the middle:

1. Blue board costs more than papercrete.

2. While blue board insulates, so does papercrete.

3. While the blue board will stop moisture from moving from outside the house to the inside, the moisture that you generate inside the house - cooking, showers, etc. will not be able to "get out".

Unless you are willing to get really serious about building a system to remove moisture from the living space, I would not do it.

I think the best moisture solution is three steps also:

1. Keep the wall's feet dry. Build a stub wall and put the papercrete on top of it so ground moisture can not get to wall.

2. Keeps the wall's shoulders dry. Have a substantial overhang of the roof.

3. Let the papercrete dry and then put an earth plaster on both the inside and outside. When that dries, a whitewash on the outside.

Bobby

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@...> wrote:
>
> THANK YOU Slurryguy......What a wonderful post. That answered SO many question that we had.
> I should have mentioned in the post that we are try to do this as cheap as possible but do it right. So we decided to possibly use that "style" of house but use post like you would use in a pole barn. They would be covered with the wall construction. Would love to have a timerframe but the cost is prohibitive.
> In this researching phase we are also looking into doing a round house using the pole construction and filling in between with PC using a slip form. Both of us LOVE round houses. Mandala in Canada has a wonderful looking round and also Deltec has some great ideas. We checked into Deltec a few years ago but it was way too costly for us. There are several in this area and everyone loves them. The only complant that I heard was about the light. But Mandala take care of that with the center sky light.
> We would like to have the poles set in cement and also do a four inch slab with a one foot riser wall for just the reason you mentioned.
> One question my wife had was would it be possible (given the moisture issue) to put insulation blue board inside the middle of the wall when it is poured ? So the PC would poured on both sides and move the form up the wall as the wall is being built. That way the board would would help prevent any moisture from entering in the wall from the outside and also give extra R value. Not sure if this has been addressed anywhere.
> Also we thought where possible to mount the door and window frames next to the post for added support.
> Thank you again.
> We welcome ANY ideas This is going to be a wonderful project but we want to get all our info clear so we do not have any major hick-ups.
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for the info. That gives me some good ideas.
> > Yes it is always unpredictable here as far as weather goes.
> > We usually have wet springs, mild to hot summers (hot for us hahaha)
> > and then 20 below around Feb.
> > Tow questions. When you say "plaster" what are you talking about (ingredients)
> > also, When you get to the top for the last foot or so how do you do that if your roof beams are in place already ?
> > Sorry for all the silly questions.....Just want to do it correct teh first time.
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
> > > it is in the downloadable pdf.
> > >
> > > If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
> > > to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.
> > >
> > > If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
> > > with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
> > > plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
> > > saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
> > > mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
> > > with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
> > > slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
> > > time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
> > > freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
> > > papercrete isn't very good insulation.
> > >
> > > I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
> > > morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)
> > >
> > > spaceman
> > >
> > > On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> > > > I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> > > > This is what we are trying to do.
> > > > We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
> > > >
> > > > Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> > > > nwjoinery.com
> > > >
> > > > Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> > > > Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> > > > We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> > > > Thank you for the help
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > No virus found in this message.
> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > > Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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[papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

Gypsy,

(Not an expert, but maybe some will update my comments.)

Three reasons not to put blue board in the middle:

1. Blue board costs more than papercrete.

2. While blue board insulates, so does papercrete.

3. While the blue board will stop moisture from moving from outside the house to the inside, the moisture that you generate inside the house - cooking, showers, etc. will not be able to "get out".

Unless you are willing to get really serious about building a system to remove moisture from the living space, I would not do it.

I think the best moisture solution is three steps also:

1. Keep the wall's feet dry. Build a stub wall and put the papercrete on top of it so ground moisture can not get to wall.

2. Keeps the wall's shoulders dry. Have a substantial overhang of the roof.

3. Let the papercrete dry and then put an earth plaster on both the inside and outside. When that dries, a whitewash on the outside.

Bobby

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@...> wrote:
>
> THANK YOU Slurryguy......What a wonderful post. That answered SO many question that we had.
> I should have mentioned in the post that we are try to do this as cheap as possible but do it right. So we decided to possibly use that "style" of house but use post like you would use in a pole barn. They would be covered with the wall construction. Would love to have a timerframe but the cost is prohibitive.
> In this researching phase we are also looking into doing a round house using the pole construction and filling in between with PC using a slip form. Both of us LOVE round houses. Mandala in Canada has a wonderful looking round and also Deltec has some great ideas. We checked into Deltec a few years ago but it was way too costly for us. There are several in this area and everyone loves them. The only complant that I heard was about the light. But Mandala take care of that with the center sky light.
> We would like to have the poles set in cement and also do a four inch slab with a one foot riser wall for just the reason you mentioned.
> One question my wife had was would it be possible (given the moisture issue) to put insulation blue board inside the middle of the wall when it is poured ? So the PC would poured on both sides and move the form up the wall as the wall is being built. That way the board would would help prevent any moisture from entering in the wall from the outside and also give extra R value. Not sure if this has been addressed anywhere.
> Also we thought where possible to mount the door and window frames next to the post for added support.
> Thank you again.
> We welcome ANY ideas This is going to be a wonderful project but we want to get all our info clear so we do not have any major hick-ups.
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for the info. That gives me some good ideas.
> > Yes it is always unpredictable here as far as weather goes.
> > We usually have wet springs, mild to hot summers (hot for us hahaha)
> > and then 20 below around Feb.
> > Tow questions. When you say "plaster" what are you talking about (ingredients)
> > also, When you get to the top for the last foot or so how do you do that if your roof beams are in place already ?
> > Sorry for all the silly questions.....Just want to do it correct teh first time.
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
> > > it is in the downloadable pdf.
> > >
> > > If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
> > > to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.
> > >
> > > If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
> > > with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
> > > plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
> > > saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
> > > mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
> > > with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
> > > slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
> > > time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
> > > freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
> > > papercrete isn't very good insulation.
> > >
> > > I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
> > > morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)
> > >
> > > spaceman
> > >
> > > On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> > > > I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> > > > This is what we are trying to do.
> > > > We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
> > > >
> > > > Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> > > > nwjoinery.com
> > > >
> > > > Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> > > > Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> > > > We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> > > > Thank you for the help
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > No virus found in this message.
> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > > Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




------------------------------------

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[papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

THANK YOU Slurryguy......What a wonderful post. That answered SO many question that we had.
I should have mentioned in the post that we are try to do this as cheap as possible but do it right. So we decided to possibly use that "style" of house but use post like you would use in a pole barn. They would be covered with the wall construction. Would love to have a timerframe but the cost is prohibitive.
In this researching phase we are also looking into doing a round house using the pole construction and filling in between with PC using a slip form. Both of us LOVE round houses. Mandala in Canada has a wonderful looking round and also Deltec has some great ideas. We checked into Deltec a few years ago but it was way too costly for us. There are several in this area and everyone loves them. The only complant that I heard was about the light. But Mandala take care of that with the center sky light.
We would like to have the poles set in cement and also do a four inch slab with a one foot riser wall for just the reason you mentioned.
One question my wife had was would it be possible (given the moisture issue) to put insulation blue board inside the middle of the wall when it is poured ? So the PC would poured on both sides and move the form up the wall as the wall is being built. That way the board would would help prevent any moisture from entering in the wall from the outside and also give extra R value. Not sure if this has been addressed anywhere.
Also we thought where possible to mount the door and window frames next to the post for added support.
Thank you again.
We welcome ANY ideas This is going to be a wonderful project but we want to get all our info clear so we do not have any major hick-ups.


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the info. That gives me some good ideas.
> Yes it is always unpredictable here as far as weather goes.
> We usually have wet springs, mild to hot summers (hot for us hahaha)
> and then 20 below around Feb.
> Tow questions. When you say "plaster" what are you talking about (ingredients)
> also, When you get to the top for the last foot or so how do you do that if your roof beams are in place already ?
> Sorry for all the silly questions.....Just want to do it correct teh first time.
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@> wrote:
> >
> > I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
> > it is in the downloadable pdf.
> >
> > If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
> > to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.
> >
> > If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
> > with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
> > plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
> > saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
> > mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
> > with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
> > slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
> > time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
> > freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
> > papercrete isn't very good insulation.
> >
> > I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
> > morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)
> >
> > spaceman
> >
> > On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> > > I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> > > This is what we are trying to do.
> > > We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
> > >
> > > Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> > > nwjoinery.com
> > >
> > > Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> > > Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> > > We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> > > Thank you for the help
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
> > >
> > >
> >
>



------------------------------------

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[papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

Spaceman's comments are right on target.

I'll attempt to expand and add more detailed suggestions.

Keep in mind that there are several different methods of accomplishing things. The following are just one way.

You may already know this, but for those that do not...
Timberframes and Pole Barns have many similarities, but usually a Timberframe is a more specific description. It appears you are building a Timberframe, which is a wicked-cool structure with wooden supports and beams and fancy wood joinery. The frame itself is a work of art. Almost always the wooden framework is exposed on the inside to show off the awesomeness of the beauty of the structure itself.

Pole barns are often utility structures that may appear to be similar at first glance on paper, but are often built from metal and use all sorts of mechanical fasteners, that are often less attractive. No big deal leaving pole barn structures exposed in a shop or a barn, but in a house, pole barn structure elements usually get buried in the walls to hide them. (Once in a while they are left exposed, but usually not.)

Spaceman's responses to your query were right on target. I'll attempt to expand with more of those details you asked for.

Foundation
This is the first place to look. Many timberframes or pole barns are built on pier foundations. This is not a problem, and you can still build the frame of the structure with this type of foundation if you choose.

However, you will still need a foundation to support your papercrete walls. This can take many forms. Options include:

Rubble trench foundation, Earthbag gravelbag stemwall. (Cheapest, but hardest to get code approval for.)

Rubble Trench Foundation, Poured concrete or cement block, or stone masonry stemwall. (Modest price, modest difficulty in code approval.)

Pier and Beam foundation. (Build a platform suspended above the ground with a crawlspace underneath. With good drawings, code approval is fairly easy. Expense can vary dramatically depending upon what is used to build the platform and how much work you do yourself.)

Traditional poured concrete footers and poured stemwalls or concrete block stemwalls. (Most expensive, but easiest to get approved.)


Where do you place that foundation? Depends on where you want your walls.

Pier and beam can share the foundation of the Timberframe or Pole Barn, but those piers will need to be large enough to handle the load of the frame as well as the rest of the structure. Calculate accordingly.

If you are building a pole barn and want to hide the post structure from view by burying the posts inside the walls, then run the trenches for rubble trench or poured concrete footers between the piers.

If you are building a Timberframe and want to show off the magnificent wooden frame on the inside, then run the trenches on the outside of the piers. Contrastingly, if you want to show off the wooden frame on the outside and keep seamless walls on the interior, then run the trenches inside the Timberframe piers.

Search the web for more information about each different type of foundation.

Toe Ups.
I recommend toe ups for your walls. Toe ups are a practice commonly used in Strawbale construction. You build a platform that extends a few inches above finished floor height out of materials that drain well and handle water well. This is added insurance, and very cheap to do. The point is to have the bottom few inches of the wall above finished floor height be able to easily withstand any plumbing pipe breaks and small interior flooding with ease. This prevents your papercrete walls from getting wet and wicking moisture up into the wall, always a good thing. Make sure your Toe ups are completely sealed to keep your wall from having air leaks. Nobody wants a draft on their feet in the winter.

Search "Strawbale Wall Toe Ups" for more information.


Constructing your walls.
Spaceman's advice is solid. Slipforms are less work than laying blocks. However, I would offer the suggestion that a hybrid wall may be easiest. Slipform using the posts to help hold formwork in place until you run out of space to pour in more slurry at the top of the wall near the roof. Then use papercrete blocks to finish the top of the wall before a box beam, and then above a box beam to fill gaps as necessary. It's probably best to pour your blocks early in the project so that they will be dry by the time you need to handle them when your walls get tall. Dry blocks are much lighter and easier to handle than partially dried once. They are far far less fragile too.

You also can consider pouring entire full height wall sections at once. The posts of the Timberframe would make excellent joint locations. The key to making this system work well is to be able to make a large enough amount of slurry continuously. In other words, complete a section between two posts in one day, maybe two if you work all night and aren't afraid of losing some sleep. Plan your papercrete mixer size and power accordingly. This method can move constuction pace along extremely quickly if you have the right equipment or craploads of helpers doing the manual labor. I recommend a really good reliable trash pump and the biggest mixer you can build for this technique to work well. Preparation and attention to details beforehand is a must. Keep your form work extremely strong so you don't have blowouts at the base of a wall. That would be a nasty mess to clean up. Better safe than sorry. Build strong forms.

No matter what system you choose, make certain to secure the walls to the posts of the frame as you go. You don't want a wall to fall over once you remove the formwork.


Box Beam/Bond Beam.

Once your walls are near full height, you want to build a beam across the top of the wall that will tie the top of the wall to the posts. Even though a Timberframe or Pole Barn won't be relying on the tensile strength of the wall to keep the roof from blowing off, I still recommend running twine or strapping from the box beam/bond beam all the way down to the foundation. It just makes everything stronger and more stable. The entire wall will stiffen up significantly. These twines and straps can get buried inside plaster and stucco, or underneath other wall finishes.

Plastering.
Keep in mind that you can choose to use other finishing methods. You can use shingles, clapboards, board/batten, various siding options, stone or brick vaneer if you want. Plaster and Stucco is usually the least expensive. However, exterior plaster and stucco are also the least forgiving as far as continual maintenance. One exterior crack can allow rain to penetrate the wall and soak your papercrete. This needs to be avoided.

If you use plaster or stucco mesh. Consider using ties that also attach the mesh to the Timberframe posts. This will add a lot of structural strength to the walls.


HVAC.
Where you can, run HVAC ductwork near the timberframe, under the floor if you have an insulated crawl space, in the attic, and/or in interior partition walls. Plan ahead and think it through before you even start building your foundation. Have a plan drawn on paper, but be prepared to adapt as you build. Plans always seem to have a way of changing unexpectedly.

If it becomes necessary to run ductwork along a papercrete exterior wall, consider a mechanical bumpout. Try to work it into the plan to become some kind of interesting architectural feature instead of a strange drywall box attached to the wall with ductwork inside. Make it blend in. Let the bump out help frame a doorway or window opening, or some other architectural feature if possible.

Plumbing.
As in standard construction, plan ahead carefully. It's best to avoid wall penetrations. Run pipes under the ground just after the foundation is dug, but before the foundation is laid. Insulate any hydronic heating tubing feed conduits as necessary, and any hot water piping that you plan to bury. Nothing particularly unusual about this practice as it concerns papercrete. Just follow standard procedures for underground plumbing right after digging the foundation.

Electrical
Best to run conduits in the attic or underground just after the foundation is dug, but before the foundation is laid down.

Ideally, use electrical conduit and attach it to the posts so that it will get covered by papercrete as the walls go up. Just leave the conduit runs a little long so that they will stick out of the wall as the wall is built. You can cut them off later. Might be good to cover each end with a block of wood or something to avoid harpooning your leg as you walk by during construction. Remove the safefy block when you cut off the conduits.

For places where you need an outlet on an exterior wall that is not next to a post, you have several options.
1. Conduit underground, poking out at the wall location.
2. Bury conduit inside the wall as you pour it/lay it up with blocks. (Awkward, but doable. Best to not do this very often, but once or twice should not be too much frustration.)
3. Put a spacer in your formwork to leave a channel in the papercrete to add conduit or wiring later.
4. Cut a channel in the wall after the wall is built using a chainsaw or other saw. Then run the rough wiring, and patch the wall.

Electrical boxes will attach well to papercrete, but you'll want to use screws instead of nails.


Making a quality home is all about the details. You are wise to ask about them and think ahead.


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "overogypsy" <overogypsy@...> wrote:
>
> I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> This is what we are trying to do.
> We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
>
> Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> nwjoinery.com
>
> Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> Thank you for the help
>




------------------------------------

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Re: [papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

that worked :)

On 6/22/2013 7:30 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> See if this link works better Let me know if it does not work.
> http://nwjoinery.com/planbook/h_salt_clerestory.htm
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@...> wrote:
>



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Re: [papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

Plaster is pretty much generic for a mix you "plaster" on. You mentioned
a sprayed top coat. Judith has a great mix using mica for sparkle. Could
be stucco, mud, lots of things.

When you get to the top you have to get creative. You could let the top
of the form lean out a little to give you a way to pour the pc in. If
you are pumping, you might make an opening the size of your hose.

These aren't silly questions at all :)

On 6/22/2013 7:28 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> Thank you for the info. That gives me some good ideas.
> Yes it is always unpredictable here as far as weather goes.
> We usually have wet springs, mild to hot summers (hot for us hahaha)
> and then 20 below around Feb.
> Tow questions. When you say "plaster" what are you talking about (ingredients)
> also, When you get to the top for the last foot or so how do you do that if your roof beams are in place already ?
> Sorry for all the silly questions.....Just want to do it correct teh first time.
>



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[papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

See if this link works better Let me know if it does not work.
http://nwjoinery.com/planbook/h_salt_clerestory.htm

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@...> wrote:
>
> I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
> it is in the downloadable pdf.
>
> If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
> to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.
>
> If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
> with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
> plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
> saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
> mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
> with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
> slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
> time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
> freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
> papercrete isn't very good insulation.
>
> I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
> morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)
>
> spaceman
>
> On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> > I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> > This is what we are trying to do.
> > We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
> >
> > Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> > nwjoinery.com
> >
> > Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> > Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> > We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> > Thank you for the help
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
> >
> >
>



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[papercreters] Re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

Thank you for the info. That gives me some good ideas.
Yes it is always unpredictable here as far as weather goes.
We usually have wet springs, mild to hot summers (hot for us hahaha)
and then 20 below around Feb.
Tow questions. When you say "plaster" what are you talking about (ingredients)
also, When you get to the top for the last foot or so how do you do that if your roof beams are in place already ?
Sorry for all the silly questions.....Just want to do it correct teh first time.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman <Spaceman@...> wrote:
>
> I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
> it is in the downloadable pdf.
>
> If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
> to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.
>
> If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
> with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
> plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
> saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
> mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
> with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
> slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
> time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
> freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
> papercrete isn't very good insulation.
>
> I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
> morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)
>
> spaceman
>
> On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> > I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> > This is what we are trying to do.
> > We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
> >
> > Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> > nwjoinery.com
> >
> > Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> > Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> > We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> > Thank you for the help
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
> >
> >
>



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Re: [papercreters] re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

I looked at nwjoinery.com but didn't see the salt box house plan. Maybe
it is in the downloadable pdf.

If you are using wooden posts, wood has a good R value. You would need
to be able to seal the joint between papercrete and wood.

If I were infilling between posts I would use a slip form and not bother
with blocks. Usually a plaster topcoat is applied over blocks (as you
plan to do) and they are concealed anyway. Slip-forming is a big labor
saver over blocks. Mix, dump or pump, and you're done. With blocks you
mix, mold, turn for drying, move and stack, mix mortar, place the blocks
with mortar. Every step is added labor. You can do 1' lifts with
slip-forms, giving it a little set time between lifts. To get enough dry
time you probably needed to start months ago. The good news is that
freezing doesn't seem to affect my papercrete, the bad news is that wet
papercrete isn't very good insulation.

I was camping in MT and on the 4th of July I had to break ice to get a
morning cup of tea. Yeah, it gets cold there :)

spaceman

On 6/22/2013 1:47 PM, overogypsy wrote:
> I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
> This is what we are trying to do.
> We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.
>
> Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
> nwjoinery.com
>
> Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
> Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
> We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
> Thank you for the help
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6431 - Release Date: 06/22/13
>
>



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[papercreters] re: pole barn (house) construction with PC infill

I was looking through all the post and could not find any DETAILED instruction (except for country ???) to tell us how to do what we are trying to do and if it will work.
This is what we are trying to do.
We are going to build a pole barn (house) and infill between the space with PC blocks. It will be a two story 35X35 house with clerestory windows. Like the one shown here.

Salt Box House Plan Has Clerestory Windows For Passive Solar Heating
nwjoinery.com

Our question is. If we fill in the space between the posts wouldn't we lose the R value at the posts ?
Also, if we spray PC on the inside and outside of the PC walls how do we keep with from gathering moisture in the wall as many others have mentioned. What would be a better finish that the PC to protect from moisture?
We live in MT and it gets rather cold here :-(
Thank you for the help



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[papercreters] Back to the future?

For all those interested in "greener" concrete or portland, here's a story by Business Week about how ancient and durable Roman mixtures are being re-disocvered.

Notably, these didn't use energy intensive kilns in their production (just volcanos).

Thanks!

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-14/ancient-roman-concrete-is-about-to-revolutionize-modern-architecture#r=rss



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[papercreters] Papercrete Instructable

Dear All,

Papercrete has been featured in an recent Instructable. See

http://www.instructables.com/id/I-Love-Papercrete/

Ashok
>




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[papercreters] Re: Cooking

Well, if you insist. Just be careful, though. You never know what you might find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA1h6Jy7jvU



--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, MotherReiver <motherreiver@...> wrote:
>
> We'll, I'll be a knockin' then :)  Thanks for the tip!
>
>



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Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

We'll, I'll be a knockin' then :)  Thanks for the tip!

From: spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

 

Not unless you used white portland. Normally it is gray, concrete colored more or less depending on your paper. Judith has some nice brown walls from using cardboard.

When it sounds like wood when you knock on it, is dry and hard, then it's done. Hard is relative, not like a rock but solid.

On 6/10/2013 1:37 PM, MotherReiver wrote:

What are the characteristics of it being "done" cooking?  I don't want to start the remainder stairs until the lower ones are solid  - does it turn white?

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Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

Not unless you used white portland. Normally it is gray, concrete colored more or less depending on your paper. Judith has some nice brown walls from using cardboard.

When it sounds like wood when you knock on it, is dry and hard, then it's done. Hard is relative, not like a rock but solid.

On 6/10/2013 1:37 PM, MotherReiver wrote:

What are the characteristics of it being "done" cooking?  I don't want to start the remainder stairs until the lower ones are solid  - does it turn white?

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Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

What are the characteristics of it being "done" cooking?  I don't want to start the remainder stairs until the lower ones are solid  - does it turn white?

From: MotherReiver <motherreiver@yahoo.com>
To: "papercreters@yahoogroups.com" <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2013 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

 

Thank you  guys for the drying tips! I am letting it dry naturally.  More steps to be dug in and poured this weekend :)

 

--Mother

From: "prrr.t21@btinternet.com" <prrr@talk21.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

 

Papercrete starts out saturated wet, it just needs to dry. It doesn't behave like concrete. --- In mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com, MotherReiver <motherreiver@...> wrote: > > Man, when I goof I goof!  I do have a group question, should I sprinkle water on these steps once a day like concrete until they are done cooking? >   > HERE is the message I was trying to send the whole group: >   > "Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl. > My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots > of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it > better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out > there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I > sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete? >

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Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

Thank you  guys for the drying tips! I am letting it dry naturally.  More steps to be dug in and poured this weekend :)

 

--Mother

From: "prrr.t21@btinternet.com" <prrr@talk21.com>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

 

Papercrete starts out saturated wet, it just needs to dry. It doesn't behave like concrete.

--- In mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com, MotherReiver <motherreiver@...> wrote:
>
> Man, when I goof I goof!  I do have a group question, should I sprinkle water on these steps once a day like concrete until they are done cooking?
>  
> HERE is the message I was trying to send the whole group:
>  
> "Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl.
> My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots
> of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it
> better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out
> there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I
> sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete?
>

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[papercreters] Re: Cooking

Papercrete starts out saturated wet, it just needs to dry. It doesn't behave like concrete.


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, MotherReiver <motherreiver@...> wrote:
>
> Man, when I goof I goof!  I do have a group question, should I sprinkle water on these steps once a day like concrete until they are done cooking?
>  
> HERE is the message I was trying to send the whole group:
>  
> "Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl.
> My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots
> of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it
> better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out
> there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I
> sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete?
>




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Re: [papercreters] Re: Cooking

Those stairs look great, you should enjoy those for years to come. Do NOT sprinkle them, this isn't concrete. You want them to dry out as much as possible.

Your son was right, add enough water so you can work it. Extra water just runs off leaving the cement behind.

On 6/2/2013 9:24 AM, MotherReiver wrote:

Man, when I goof I goof!  I do have a group question, should I sprinkle water on these steps once a day like concrete until they are done cooking?

 

HERE is the message I was trying to send the whole group:

 

"Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl.
My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots
of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it
better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out
there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I
sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete?

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3343 / Virus Database: 3184/6375 - Release Date: 06/01/13

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[papercreters] Re: Cooking

Man, when I goof I goof!  I do have a group question, should I sprinkle water on these steps once a day like concrete until they are done cooking?

 

HERE is the message I was trying to send the whole group:

 

"Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl.
My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots
of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it
better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out
there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I
sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete?

__._,_.___

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[papercreters] Re: Cooking

Oops!  Looks like I didn't send this message to all, to thank you all.  Also, I have uploaded two pics of the papercrete "stairs" at this album:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/783668263/pic/list

 

Mother

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[papercreters] Cooking

Thank you all for the tips! At least the only thing I ruined was a test bowl. My son came over and helped me start my "stairs" on the raw hill. I made lots of mud and he had me mix it looser than I was (more water) so he could trowel it better. We got two of the steps done and I suspect that even though this is out there in the dry sun, it will eventually dry. I'll post a pic soon. Should I sprinkle it with water a bit every day like you do concrete?



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[papercreters] Re: Simplicity

It really depends on your climate, and on the depth of the thing. I've got some drying out now, its taking weeks as I've had to erect a polythene cover to keep all the rain off. Unlike concrete, papercrete doesn't set until it dries.

Well compressed blocks can be moved immediately, albeit with care.




--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, MotherReiver <motherreiver@...> wrote:
> How long does it take to dry papercrete?




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Re: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete and Cordwood Masonry - broken link fix

See what I mean, Folks? Jay, We have a crazy talking cat. A while back she was alone in the living room and I was around the corner in the kitchen. For about ten minutes she was saying, "Hello, Hello, Hello....." I walked around the corner and said, " Hi There." She replied and said, Meow." All of the Hellos were in a deep voice and the Meow was in a high pitch. We always know when she wants in or out of a door or when she wants food or water. If the wrong person pets her or picks her up she just keeps saying "No."   My perfect dream would be someone from a circus showing up and paying me $5000 for her.   Alan in Michigan --- On Sat, 6/1/13, JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> wrote: From: JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> Subject: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete and Cordwood Masonry - broken link fix To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 1, 2013, 7:45 AM Hey.  Don't knock the supreme wisdom of the canine species.  The neighbor's dog was very willing to listen attentively as I talked to him yesterday.  He never lost focus and would tip his head from side to side as I told him what a group of morons Yahoo has. Then, since he was such a great listener, I gave him the leftover stale cornbread scraps I was holding.  I'm certain he understood everything I said. It became obvious last night, when he hollered after sunset, "YAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOO ... YAAAHOOOOOOOOOOO ... just in time to spread the word to everyone working on the passing train about a half mile away.  Then he started saying, "ROUGH ROUGH ROUGH ROUGH."  The dog is very perceptive.  Yahoo certainly is a very rough system to use. --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Alan <rustaholic777@...> wrote: > > Thanks Jay. > If nothing else you sure are good for a few laughs quite often. >   > Alan in Michigan > > --- On Fri, 5/31/13, JayH <slurryguy@...> wrote: > > <snip> > > Excuse me while I go mutter a few choice words about Yahoo to the neighbor's dog who I hear outside my window.  He sounds just as pissed off about Yahoo as I am right now.  Or maybe he doesn't like being outside in the rain?  Naaaah... it's gotta be Yahoo.  That dog senses idiots instinctively.  > > Hey now... I know what you're thinking... How does he know the dog senses idiots?  Well... let's not get all personal now shall we? > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com     papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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