I think you would really need a lot more compaction to remove water contend than you would with one of those smaller units that you just push down and then remove the form
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "john_mc999" <maruadventurer@...> wrote:
>
> Considering the nature of papercrete might something like this be a better tech? -- http://www.youtube.com/user/DoubellMachines?feature=watch
>
> The only issue would be to work with a drier mix possibly?
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Jones <yvairguy@> wrote:
> >
> > Kind of my thought, here you are using a cast off material to build a
> > structure but whats the point if you are going to spend 25k on a press. I
> > would make it to where it could do rammed earth as well as cement block.
> > Also need some holes to use as raceways. I agree a manual press may work
>
> [[snip]]
>
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Tuesday, April 30, 2013
[papercreters] Re: Brick Press
Re: [papercreters] Re: Brick Press
What is the cost of these Machines? We thought about Rammed Earth 8 yrs ago. To build the forms mix the very specific soil and then tamp it off grid is horribly labor intensive. Calle Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android |
From: john_mc999 <maruadventurer@gmail.com>;
To: <papercreters@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Brick Press
Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 2:29:52 PM
| Considering the nature of papercrete might something like this be a better tech? -- http://www.youtube.com/user/DoubellMachines?feature=watch |
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[papercreters] Re: Brick Press
Considering the nature of papercrete might something like this be a better tech? -- http://www.youtube.com/user/DoubellMachines?feature=watch
The only issue would be to work with a drier mix possibly?
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Jones <yvairguy@...> wrote:
>
> Kind of my thought, here you are using a cast off material to build a
> structure but whats the point if you are going to spend 25k on a press. I
> would make it to where it could do rammed earth as well as cement block.
> Also need some holes to use as raceways. I agree a manual press may work
[[snip]]
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[papercreters] Re: Flooring.
>
> Rusty,
>
> Here's an article on earthen floors that I found online some time back.
>
> Tim
>
> ///////////
>
> Tamped Earth Floors Unstabilized Earthen Floor Using Road Base
> by Frank Meyer
>
> [Note: This technique by Frank Meyer is a alternate method for making earthen floors. Tamped earth floors dry much faster than poured adobe and also cracks less.]
>
> A few years ago, when asked to make an earthen floor, I started by collecting all the soil types available in our area. Austin, Texas is situated in a geologically diverse area, so I got samples from several places including the building site, my backyard and all the commercially available dirts, loams and road bases. After weeks of playing in the dirt, mixing in stabilizers and trying to strengthen and harden the earth to make it suitable for a floor, I came to an interesting conclusion. One particular road base would make the hardest, prettiest and quickest floor without any stabilizers at all. Its rich red color and excellent blend of silt, clay, sand and gravel made test bricks that were more impressive than anything else I came up with.
>
> Not all road bases are created equal. The one I chose is what is known here as city base. It has been approved by road building engineers for use in building roads and streets in Austin. (A quest that seems to have no end). It originates in a quarry where the material is taken from the earth and the silt, clay, sand and gravel are separated, then reblended to proportions specified by engineers. It has a plasticity index of 12 which relates to the way it shrinks and swells. It costs $2.48 per ton plus hauling. A 500 sq. ft. floor will require two twelve-ton truckloads costing $200-$300 delivered.
>
> I recently set out to do a floor using site-available clay. We did several tests, both stabilized and unstabilized. Though the owner of the building was adamantly in favor of using the "dirt under his feet," after comparing the color and hardness of our site tests with road base tests, he changed his mind and we are presently working on his floor using road base.
>
> By using this material, and applying basic roadbuilding techniques, we have a big advantage over traditional poured earth floors. The process uses relatively little water, thereby requiring a much shorter drying time. It can typically be walked on a day or two after installing.
>
> Before proceeding with the installation process, it is necessary to consider vapor barriers. I have done earth floors with and without vapor barriers. Unfortunately, for the sake of observing their performance, conditions here have not varied enough for me to form an accurate opinion, as drought conditions have persisted recently. My feeling is, if in doubt, use a vapor barrier. If your location is high and dry and you want your floor to "breathe," consider not using one.
>
> To begin the process of building our floor, the ground should be fairly level, smooth, compacted and at least 6" below the planned finished height. If a vapor barrier is being used, a layer of sand should be spread an inch or two thick below and above the vapor barrier. This prevents gravel from puncturing it. The first layer of road base is now applied about 2" thick and wetted with a hose or watering can. There is no need to soak it. Just get it wet enough so the silt and clay stick to the aggregate. It must then be compacted. A plate compactor, available at tool rental outlets, works well. Be sure to vent the building with fans if using a gas-powered compactor. Hand-tamping is slower but much quieter and without fumes. Hand-tamping the edges works best even if a powered compactor is used. Wooden tampers are easily made or a steel plate welded to a piece of pipe works nicely. Another layer just like the other follows again and again until we are about 1" from our finish height. When estimating the amount of material to use, figure it will lose about one-third of its original volume when compacted.
>
> At this point we need to level the floor. First we screen out the large aggregate from the base. Using 3/8" hardware cloth or similar screening material, we sift the road base. A simple wood frame with the screen attached works well. Having removed the large aggregate, we are left with a mixture of silt, clay, sand and gravel no bigger than 3/8". This is layered on and leveled off using screed boards much like concrete workers use. By dragging our screed across two level boards set at finish height, we knock down the high spots and fill in the low spots. This process can also be applied to each layer of base thereby controlling the level layer by layer.
>
> After leveling, this mix must be wetted again and tamped, making sure that it bonds with the layer below. For the top coat we screen the 3/8" material again, this time using 1/8" hardware cloth. This fine mixture can be applied dry and wetted like all the preceding layers or mixed wet and troweled on. The most important thing at this point is to make sure it is bonding with the layer below. A little extra water on the coat below the top coat seems to help. Also, scratching through with a trowel will help the two layers bond. I have had better success applying the top coat dry. The top coat is not compacted, but hand-troweled and burnished, using enough water to make it bond and be workable. Trial and error will give you a feel for it.
>
> We seal our floor only after it is thoroughly dry. In the summer in Texas thorough drying may take only a few weeks. In cooler, moister climates it may take several months. The floor can be used during this drying period. Cracks from drying, and any chipping or gouging that may occur while drying, can be patched by again screening the road base, this time using window screen. What is left is a fine powder of silt, clay and fine sand. This mixture makes an excellent patching and burnishing material. It can be sprinkled on, wetted and blended in with the floor. The more time and patience you have at this point the better your results will be, as burnishing with a pool trowel brings out the natural beauty and character of the earth.
>
> The best sealer I have found is boiled linseed oil, thinned with turpentine and brushed on in several coats. (The odor dissipates in a week or two.) I also used Palmer 9400 Impregnant (Phone # 800/252-3690, 800/421-2487 or 301/898-7848) on one floor and sodium silicate on another.
>
> This is an all-natural non-toxic floor that has relatively low embodied energy. With time, patience and an affinity for getting dirty, anyone can do it. Enjoy!
>
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Monday, April 29, 2013
Re: [papercreters] Re: Brick Press
Kind of my thought, here you are using a cast off material to build a structure but whats the point if you are going to spend 25k on a press. I would make it to where it could do rammed earth as well as cement block. Also need some holes to use as raceways. I agree a manual press may work well and put the ability to build a structure within the capabilities of many people with limited finances.
It seems a really neat machine but the mechanical skills necessary to
build one are beyond the vast majority . Even fairly skilled mechanics
will struggle to build one. On the other hand a good welder should be
able to make a very good hand brick press.
On 4/28/13, Jeff J <yvairguy@gmail.com> wrote:
> 25k yikes, maybe i need to start building some, i wonder if that was a
> prototype? i could see a few improvements i would make
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>>
>> I have been sharing my passion for papercrete with friends for quite some
>> time and recently it paid off. A friend shared with me a site that is
>> absolutely exhilarating. It is Open Source Ecology a site where they are
>> building (DIY), making plans, and sharing to the world 100 "civilization
>> tool kit" machines. They have a few done already and one is a CEB press.
>> With a few modifications I believe this could produce papercrete blocks
>> far cheaper than the $25,000.00 Barry Fuller wants for one of his.
>>
>> The main site is: http://opensourceecology.org/ and a link to the wiki on
>> the CEB press is:
>> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Civilization_Starter_Kit_DVD_v0.01#CEB_Press
>>
>> Enjoy!
>> Ron
>>
>
>
>
--
Forrest Charnock
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[papercreters] Re: Brick Press
Ron,
The work of GVCS is good. They have shown videos of their CEB press working and it seems to be doing well. But I believe a CEB press requires a fairly high pressure. I believe that pressing papercrete is a good idea, but the pressure needed will be only 1/10 or 1/20 of that for CEB.
Also CEB, I assume. produces little water when squeezed. Papercrete will produce a lot, so you may need to build in water channels.
They have a new version at:
<http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/CEB_Press_IV>
Bobby
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> I have been sharing my passion for papercrete with friends for quite some time and recently it paid off. A friend shared with me a site that is absolutely exhilarating. It is Open Source Ecology a site where they are building (DIY), making plans, and sharing to the world 100 "civilization tool kit" machines. They have a few done already and one is a CEB press. With a few modifications I believe this could produce papercrete blocks far cheaper than the $25,000.00 Barry Fuller wants for one of his.
>
> The main site is: http://opensourceecology.org/ and a link to the wiki on the CEB press is: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Civilization_Starter_Kit_DVD_v0.01#CEB_Press
>
> Enjoy!
> Ron
>
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Re: [papercreters] Re: Brick Press
It seems a really neat machine but the mechanical skills necessary to
build one are beyond the vast majority . Even fairly skilled mechanics
will struggle to build one. On the other hand a good welder should be
able to make a very good hand brick press.
On 4/28/13, Jeff J <yvairguy@gmail.com> wrote:
> 25k yikes, maybe i need to start building some, i wonder if that was a
> prototype? i could see a few improvements i would make
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>>
>> I have been sharing my passion for papercrete with friends for quite some
>> time and recently it paid off. A friend shared with me a site that is
>> absolutely exhilarating. It is Open Source Ecology a site where they are
>> building (DIY), making plans, and sharing to the world 100 "civilization
>> tool kit" machines. They have a few done already and one is a CEB press.
>> With a few modifications I believe this could produce papercrete blocks
>> far cheaper than the $25,000.00 Barry Fuller wants for one of his.
>>
>> The main site is: http://opensourceecology.org/ and a link to the wiki on
>> the CEB press is:
>> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Civilization_Starter_Kit_DVD_v0.01#CEB_Press
>>
>> Enjoy!
>> Ron
>>
>
>
>
--
Forrest Charnock
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[papercreters] Re: Flooring.
Rusty,
Here's an article on earthen floors that I found online some time back.
Tim
///////////
Tamped Earth Floors Unstabilized Earthen Floor Using Road Base
by Frank Meyer
[Note: This technique by Frank Meyer is a alternate method for making earthen floors. Tamped earth floors dry much faster than poured adobe and also cracks less.]
A few years ago, when asked to make an earthen floor, I started by collecting all the soil types available in our area. Austin, Texas is situated in a geologically diverse area, so I got samples from several places including the building site, my backyard and all the commercially available dirts, loams and road bases. After weeks of playing in the dirt, mixing in stabilizers and trying to strengthen and harden the earth to make it suitable for a floor, I came to an interesting conclusion. One particular road base would make the hardest, prettiest and quickest floor without any stabilizers at all. Its rich red color and excellent blend of silt, clay, sand and gravel made test bricks that were more impressive than anything else I came up with.
Not all road bases are created equal. The one I chose is what is known here as city base. It has been approved by road building engineers for use in building roads and streets in Austin. (A quest that seems to have no end). It originates in a quarry where the material is taken from the earth and the silt, clay, sand and gravel are separated, then reblended to proportions specified by engineers. It has a plasticity index of 12 which relates to the way it shrinks and swells. It costs $2.48 per ton plus hauling. A 500 sq. ft. floor will require two twelve-ton truckloads costing $200-$300 delivered.
I recently set out to do a floor using site-available clay. We did several tests, both stabilized and unstabilized. Though the owner of the building was adamantly in favor of using the "dirt under his feet," after comparing the color and hardness of our site tests with road base tests, he changed his mind and we are presently working on his floor using road base.
By using this material, and applying basic roadbuilding techniques, we have a big advantage over traditional poured earth floors. The process uses relatively little water, thereby requiring a much shorter drying time. It can typically be walked on a day or two after installing.
Before proceeding with the installation process, it is necessary to consider vapor barriers. I have done earth floors with and without vapor barriers. Unfortunately, for the sake of observing their performance, conditions here have not varied enough for me to form an accurate opinion, as drought conditions have persisted recently. My feeling is, if in doubt, use a vapor barrier. If your location is high and dry and you want your floor to "breathe," consider not using one.
To begin the process of building our floor, the ground should be fairly level, smooth, compacted and at least 6" below the planned finished height. If a vapor barrier is being used, a layer of sand should be spread an inch or two thick below and above the vapor barrier. This prevents gravel from puncturing it. The first layer of road base is now applied about 2" thick and wetted with a hose or watering can. There is no need to soak it. Just get it wet enough so the silt and clay stick to the aggregate. It must then be compacted. A plate compactor, available at tool rental outlets, works well. Be sure to vent the building with fans if using a gas-powered compactor. Hand-tamping is slower but much quieter and without fumes. Hand-tamping the edges works best even if a powered compactor is used. Wooden tampers are easily made or a steel plate welded to a piece of pipe works nicely. Another layer just like the other follows again and again until we are about 1" from our finish height. When estimating the amount of material to use, figure it will lose about one-third of its original volume when compacted.
At this point we need to level the floor. First we screen out the large aggregate from the base. Using 3/8" hardware cloth or similar screening material, we sift the road base. A simple wood frame with the screen attached works well. Having removed the large aggregate, we are left with a mixture of silt, clay, sand and gravel no bigger than 3/8". This is layered on and leveled off using screed boards much like concrete workers use. By dragging our screed across two level boards set at finish height, we knock down the high spots and fill in the low spots. This process can also be applied to each layer of base thereby controlling the level layer by layer.
After leveling, this mix must be wetted again and tamped, making sure that it bonds with the layer below. For the top coat we screen the 3/8" material again, this time using 1/8" hardware cloth. This fine mixture can be applied dry and wetted like all the preceding layers or mixed wet and troweled on. The most important thing at this point is to make sure it is bonding with the layer below. A little extra water on the coat below the top coat seems to help. Also, scratching through with a trowel will help the two layers bond. I have had better success applying the top coat dry. The top coat is not compacted, but hand-troweled and burnished, using enough water to make it bond and be workable. Trial and error will give you a feel for it.
We seal our floor only after it is thoroughly dry. In the summer in Texas thorough drying may take only a few weeks. In cooler, moister climates it may take several months. The floor can be used during this drying period. Cracks from drying, and any chipping or gouging that may occur while drying, can be patched by again screening the road base, this time using window screen. What is left is a fine powder of silt, clay and fine sand. This mixture makes an excellent patching and burnishing material. It can be sprinkled on, wetted and blended in with the floor. The more time and patience you have at this point the better your results will be, as burnishing with a pool trowel brings out the natural beauty and character of the earth.
The best sealer I have found is boiled linseed oil, thinned with turpentine and brushed on in several coats. (The odor dissipates in a week or two.) I also used Palmer 9400 Impregnant (Phone # 800/252-3690, 800/421-2487 or 301/898-7848) on one floor and sodium silicate on another.
This is an all-natural non-toxic floor that has relatively low embodied energy. With time, patience and an affinity for getting dirty, anyone can do it. Enjoy!
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[papercreters] Re: Flooring.
Here's another manufacturer of ceb presses - manual and hydraulic
http://www.ferncometal.com/products.htm
Tim
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff J" <yvairguy@...> wrote:
>
> you could lay down a cement base and lay something like slate or flagstone right on the caliche as long as the caliche is stable, you would want to run a compactor over it before you started laying and as you would level the stone the caliche would only have to be close to level. I have actually seen whole houses done this way, the house is built on a foundation and then the floors are put in later on the bare earth, not even as good as the caliche in my opinion. tried to find some pictures but couldn't
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty S" <slaytonfarms@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > First time poster. I am so frustrated with my build and need some guidance. We live in West Central Texas. We are at a stand still on our build because of the floors. Here is what we have done so far.
> >
> > I have buried 4 layers of tires rammed full of caliche and have 2 layers above ground making the foundation done.
> > I put in all of the below ground blackwater plumbing. This includes the septic tank and leach field.
> > I put in 6 inches of caliche, leveled, and packed as a subfloor.
> > This was all finished 18 months ago. Then we started trying to save the 8k needed to pour a concrete slab inside the Tire Foundation. But life keeps throwing us curve balls and we can never quite raise the money to the full 8k. We even got it to 7k in December and life happened taking the lot of it. On a Paramedics wage that was a chore.
> > (You getting the whole story to get a full appreciation of my frustration.)
> > The Dang Slab is just not going to happen so we are looking for something I can do myself and as money comes in. Because we are not going to take out a loan, this is the only absolute in the build.
> >
> > Now with the questions. I have seen alot of people doing adobe floors and they always involve saying that the will Groove and or pit depending on what kind of furniture you put on it. That sounds horrible to me. I found CEBs (Compressed Earth Bricks) stabilized with concrete done by a family and was excited about that. But to buy a machine to make the bricks is 25k, DANG.
> >
> > The floor plan is huge and a bit embarrassing as we homeschool and have incorporated a classroom and office into the home, 2600 sq ft.
> >
> > I can build almost anything, but this floor thing is driving a wedge into the effort and I need help. My wife has all but given up on it and I need a solution or I will be forced to mortgage my 6th generation homestead to go the loan route and I hate that with all I am. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
> >
> > Rusty
> >
>
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Sunday, April 28, 2013
[papercreters] Re: Papercrete research in South Korea
Sorry. Yahoo chopped up that url link.
Here is the same link to the South Korean papercrete research report in a clickable TinyUrl format.
http://tinyurl.com/SourthKoreanPapercreteResearch
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "JayH" <slurryguy@...> wrote:
>
> Not only is papercrete research being conducted in Korea, but the Korean government is paying grant money to researchers to make it happen.
>
> http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings/ICCM18proceedings/data/2.%20Oral%20Presentation/Aug23(Tuesday)/T15%20Green%20Composites/T15-3-IK0961.pdf
>
>
> Their process for making papercrete paralleled the type of thinking engineers use for testing concrete. They intentionally kept their samples moist for 7 days before pulling the forms off. That is the type of thinking used when making concrete.
>
> They then let their samples dry for 60 days after casting, which would be 53 days after the forms were pulled and the samples were removed from a moist environment. For the dimension of the samples they made, this should have been more than enough time for them to completely dry, but they make no mention of the environmental conditions during the drying time.
>
> They make no mention of compressing the slurry into the forms, which is one of the most important factors in determining final strength of the dry sample.
>
>
>
> I'm very disappointed in their mix ratios. They used an extremely cement-rich mix. They had some samples use as much as 1 part paper to 19 parts cement!! Seriously! That is the highest cement ratio I have ever seen. Unreal. I tend to wonder if this could even be called papercrete and keep a straight face. It's concrete with a tiny bit of paper fiber tossed in.
>
>
> The least amount of cement they used had 1 part paper to 5.7 parts cement by weight. This is still extreme overkill. In fact, most of the best attributes of papercrete won't be apparent at those mix ratios.
>
> I would classify their experiments more in the fibercement category. Something along the lines of what is used to make fibercement siding or Hardiboard.
>
>
> Their conclusions seem on par with what most of us would have expected. The more paper, the more shrinkage. The strength numbers go down.
>
> The sad part is they didn't get to low enough cement ratios to start to see the real advantages that papercrete has to offer, such as insulation and low cost.
>
>
> I'm glad to see this research being conducted, but clearly too many researchers are thinking along the lines of papercrete being concrete and not thinking of papercrete as a composite wood product. Even with these limitations, there is some worthwhile data in their report.
>
> I hope to see more research conducted. I don't really care in what country.
> The more information available the better.
>
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[papercreters] Papercrete research in South Korea
Not only is papercrete research being conducted in Korea, but the Korean government is paying grant money to researchers to make it happen.
http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings/ICCM18proceedings/data/2.%20Oral%20Presentation/Aug23(Tuesday)/T15%20Green%20Composites/T15-3-IK0961.pdf
Their process for making papercrete paralleled the type of thinking engineers use for testing concrete. They intentionally kept their samples moist for 7 days before pulling the forms off. That is the type of thinking used when making concrete.
They then let their samples dry for 60 days after casting, which would be 53 days after the forms were pulled and the samples were removed from a moist environment. For the dimension of the samples they made, this should have been more than enough time for them to completely dry, but they make no mention of the environmental conditions during the drying time.
They make no mention of compressing the slurry into the forms, which is one of the most important factors in determining final strength of the dry sample.
I'm very disappointed in their mix ratios. They used an extremely cement-rich mix. They had some samples use as much as 1 part paper to 19 parts cement!! Seriously! That is the highest cement ratio I have ever seen. Unreal. I tend to wonder if this could even be called papercrete and keep a straight face. It's concrete with a tiny bit of paper fiber tossed in.
The least amount of cement they used had 1 part paper to 5.7 parts cement by weight. This is still extreme overkill. In fact, most of the best attributes of papercrete won't be apparent at those mix ratios.
I would classify their experiments more in the fibercement category. Something along the lines of what is used to make fibercement siding or Hardiboard.
Their conclusions seem on par with what most of us would have expected. The more paper, the more shrinkage. The strength numbers go down.
The sad part is they didn't get to low enough cement ratios to start to see the real advantages that papercrete has to offer, such as insulation and low cost.
I'm glad to see this research being conducted, but clearly too many researchers are thinking along the lines of papercrete being concrete and not thinking of papercrete as a composite wood product. Even with these limitations, there is some worthwhile data in their report.
I hope to see more research conducted. I don't really care in what country.
The more information available the better.
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[papercreters] Re: Brick Press
25k yikes, maybe i need to start building some, i wonder if that was a prototype? i could see a few improvements i would make
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> I have been sharing my passion for papercrete with friends for quite some time and recently it paid off. A friend shared with me a site that is absolutely exhilarating. It is Open Source Ecology a site where they are building (DIY), making plans, and sharing to the world 100 "civilization tool kit" machines. They have a few done already and one is a CEB press. With a few modifications I believe this could produce papercrete blocks far cheaper than the $25,000.00 Barry Fuller wants for one of his.
>
> The main site is: http://opensourceecology.org/ and a link to the wiki on the CEB press is: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Civilization_Starter_Kit_DVD_v0.01#CEB_Press
>
> Enjoy!
> Ron
>
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[papercreters] Brick Press
I have been sharing my passion for papercrete with friends for quite some time and recently it paid off. A friend shared with me a site that is absolutely exhilarating. It is Open Source Ecology a site where they are building (DIY), making plans, and sharing to the world 100 "civilization tool kit" machines. They have a few done already and one is a CEB press. With a few modifications I believe this could produce papercrete blocks far cheaper than the $25,000.00 Barry Fuller wants for one of his.
The main site is: http://opensourceecology.org/ and a link to the wiki on the CEB press is: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Civilization_Starter_Kit_DVD_v0.01#CEB_Press
Enjoy!
Ron
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Tuesday, April 23, 2013
[papercreters] re:
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I gave up eating candy for Lent. Mommy was proud and so were the nuns. I thought it was okay to eat the candy if the wrapper was on. I was just sucking out the juices. -- Rugburns
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