Thanks Jay and Tina for the kind words. I truly love PC, when I was
working for the City of Sayre, I used it on several of my building
project for them. It is truly an amazing product, to be able to form it
into walls, compress it into blocks, pour it into stones, apply it as
stucco, use it as mortor to adhere blocks or stones or spray it through
a hopper. No other product I've ever heard of can do all that.
My enclouser wall was poured 12" thick, my stones are at least 2 to 2
1/2 inches thick, they are applyed to both sides of the wall making the
wall at least 16" thick. During our last blizzard, we received 4' drifts
up banked up against that wall and I contintued to work on the inside of
my wall laying stones, keep in mind the wall is in direct contact with
the weather outside. That wall was no colder than any exterior wall of
my house that is not in direct contact with the outside. The stones
stuck just as if it had been a nice warm summer day outside. The R
factor of my wall must be really high, my formula is not quite the same
as most others but I will wager that my R factor and sheer strength is
is as good as anybodys.
You will notice my electrical wire running under the stones, I forgot to
embed the wire in the wall and had the idea to just screw it to the PC
wall and cover over it with stones. It worked great and the wire will be
at least 2" deep in the finished wall, thats at least as good as a 2x4
stick framed wall.
Speaking of screwing, when I have a larger stone that I have doubts
about, I just put morter on the back and set it in place and using a 3"
screw I screw it to the PC wall. AMAZING STUFF!
Thanks again
Bob the builder
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Thursday, February 28, 2013
[papercreters] Slow but sure
[papercreters] Re: Slow but sure
Just to make it easier for anyone wanting to view Bob's photos, they can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1000048770/pic/list?mode=tn&order=mtime&start=1&count=20&dir=desc
You'll need to be logged in with your YahooID to view them.
I tried to sort the photos such that the most recent ones are at the top, but keep in mind that Bob's entire project is many pages worth of photo thumbnails. More pages can be selected near the bottom of that page. You can sort the photos however you want using the links near the top of the page.
Wow Bob.
Sorry to hear that you and your wife got stuck between your papercrete rocks and a very hard place.
(Yeah... I know that was extremely lame, but if you don't find the joke funny, feel free to just laugh at me instead. You deserve all the smiles and laughs you can get. Good medicine, laughter.)
Seriously, though...
My absolute best to you and your wife. I don't blame you one bit for going slow. Clearly that was the smart choice.
The work that you are doing. That's beautiful. First rate stuff. Clearly unique vision and techniques. It's photos like yours that make Papercreters the great group that it is.
I love it when people try interesting projects and new ideas. Keep chipping away at something, and the results always seem to turn out amazing.
Keep up the great work. Just don't overdo it. A little at a time is just fine. Enjoy the journey.
I don't know if it helps, but my heart is with you too, as probably are many others.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "countryatheartok" <criswells.ok@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all! It's been a long time coming but we are finally getting to the
> end of the porch enclosure that we started back in 2009. A lot of water
> has passed under the bridge since then, my wife has had two strokes, and
> after her second stroke I almost had a heart attack and was rushed to
> the hospital for a pacemaker and quad by pass. Everything is getting
> back to normal now and we are finally getting to porch enclosed.
>
>
> I have posted new photos of the work in progress. We originally poured a
> one foot thick papercrete wall using the "T" lock method, we are now
> applying our papercrete stones to that wall. We moved the door from the
> house and installed it from the house to the papercrete wall to form a
> room, all the new walls will receive the papercrete stones.
>
> Please ask questions if you would like to know more. Great to be alive
> and back at work on my favorite product, PAPERCRETE!
>
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Wednesday, February 27, 2013
[papercreters] Slow but sure
Hi all! It's been a long time coming but we are finally getting to the
end of the porch enclosure that we started back in 2009. A lot of water
has passed under the bridge since then, my wife has had two strokes, and
after her second stroke I almost had a heart attack and was rushed to
the hospital for a pacemaker and quad by pass. Everything is getting
back to normal now and we are finally getting to porch enclosed.
I have posted new photos of the work in progress. We originally poured a
one foot thick papercrete wall using the "T" lock method, we are now
applying our papercrete stones to that wall. We moved the door from the
house and installed it from the house to the papercrete wall to form a
room, all the new walls will receive the papercrete stones.
Please ask questions if you would like to know more. Great to be alive
and back at work on my favorite product, PAPERCRETE!
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Monday, February 25, 2013
[papercreters] Re: Papercrete for a Cob oven door?
Hi, did you make the oven door out of papercrete? How is it holding up?
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "PamC" <honeyland12@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone Happy 4th to you all, I had a question for you, Is it ok to make my Cob oven door outta Papercrete?
>
> Thanks
> Pam in east TN
>
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Sunday, February 24, 2013
[papercreters] Re: Fibrecrete repair of fire damaged wall
Impressive work Bob.
For those that haven't seen Bob's photos, they can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/photos/album/1557570190/pic/list
You'll need to login with your YahooID to be able to view the photos.
Bob always seems to have interesting projects.
I hope nobody was hurt in the fire.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <robertmerrill1953@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All............ it has been awhile. Thought I'd share an inexpensive save we did on a fire damaged wall. In the photos section you will see how a fire took the back wall of the shop out. In November and the scramble was on to keep the snow out. We had scrap roofing as you can see.... then on the charred yet stable portions we hung discarded industrial grade carpet for lath. Built out window trim with pieces of styrofoam and chicken wire. Here you see the scratch coat we applied in just an hour using the "TIROLESSA" mortar sprayer. We are waiting for warmer temps to do the 2 remaining coats.
> Cheers.......... Bob
>
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Saturday, February 23, 2013
Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Greetings,
If the plates are not kept current, yes, they do tax you on it as a
home. Lots of RVs are lived in and pay the property tax, not the road
tax. Good luck trying to use an 18 wheeler as storage unless you keep
it licensed and insured for the road. They will tax you one way or the
other. The counties and the state are broke.
Bright Blessings,
Garth & Kim Travis
www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
Bedias, Texas
On 2/23/2013 5:36 AM, waterengineman101 wrote:
> "I have to pay for my fema trailer as living space, even though no one
> lives in it"...They are stealing from you then. That thing have a
> licence plate? Then THAT's how the taxes are paid on it...not threw
> property taxs. And just because you don't register it does not mean it
> is okay for them to give you taxation without representation....U.S.A.
> (us baby!) fought a war over that with england. Sounds like you need to
> hire an attorney.
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com>, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> >
> > Greetings,
> > I would not count on this one. If the vehicle doesn't move and is not
> > street legal, then yes it counts as a building. I have to pay for my
> > fema trailer as living space, even though no one lives in it. It is my
> > guest house. It has wheels, for that matter, so does an old mobile I
> > use for storage, but it is taxable as well. Frankly, insurance and
> > plates cost more than taxes, at least in my county, which is Grimes.
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Garth & Kim Travis
> > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
> > Bedias, Texas
> >
> > On 2/19/2013 5:19 AM, waterengineman101 wrote:
> > >...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers
> > > and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well
> then you
> > > won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6125 - Release Date: 02/23/13
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Y all should not be barking at each other. The site is about cooperation. Most papercrete is made with to little Portland and will become weak when wet. Additionally the free lime left over from a Portland reaction will react with water for further destruction. For this you should replace 15% of the Portland with metakaolin Pozzolan. Water should be shed away from the base of all structures. Do all this and make sure that the cements are at least 80 to 100 pounds per cubic yard and you will be fine. Go to www.evesgarden.org for reference ( I am not there anymore). Barry Fuller is a friend for ten years and we have worked together on testing. He will confirm that I can answer your questions. Coupling your building to the ground is a good idea,while burying it is not. If you have at least an 8" papercrete shell above ground, you will gain nothing but problems from burial. Set the home down in the ground, sure, then earth berm for aesthetics. I will answer further questions if you are serious, but no bitching. Sorry, ladies.
Sent from my iPad
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[papercreters] Re: Fibrecrete repair of fire damaged wall
Hi Bob, I looked at the photos before I read your post and I posted in
the comment section.
I asked what that black covering was and now I read that it was carpet.
My question is, did you also put that carpet over the metal roofing
material? If not how did you get it all to come out even. And can you
show the work done in between, like show applying the scratch coat, I
don't think you got the scratch coat to come out that smooth applying
over just what we see here, if so I'd sure like to see how you did it!
Best Regards
Bob Criswell
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <robertmerrill1953@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All............ it has been awhile. Thought I'd share an
inexpensive save we did on a fire damaged wall. In the photos section
you will see how a fire took the back wall of the shop out. In November
and the scramble was on to keep the snow out. We had scrap roofing as
you can see.... then on the charred yet stable portions we hung
discarded industrial grade carpet for lath. Built out window trim with
pieces of styrofoam and chicken wire. Here you see the scratch coat we
applied in just an hour using the "TIROLESSA" mortar sprayer. We are
waiting for warmer temps to do the 2 remaining coats.
> Cheers.......... Bob
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Okay thanks.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, clydetcurry@... wrote:
>
> Pour the papercrete against an impervious surface with no gaps. Poly or such! Make sure cements are at least one hundred pounds per cubic yard of papercrete.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Stucco is exterior. I am talking underground, and waterproof, not water resistant. There is no use for stucco in my application.
"superplasticizers"...have heard of them. May or may not incorperate them in the mix.
"grancrete or Kool-seal or similar would guarantee waterproofing"...Haven't heard of either but will do the research.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "zenseeker70" <mrinnovation@...> wrote:
>
> Sure. Most of the stucco base coat products on the market are made for water resistance, and typically use latex additives, which also improve workability. Some are even supposed to be water proof. Most all of the additives (I.E. Sika) create a polymer-modified concrete which is at least water resistant. At the batch plant it was very common to add these to our mixes for cold weather and where we knew there would be constant freeze/thaw standing water. It reduces the probability of spalling and other concrete defects from freeze/thaw cycles. Latex polymers also reduce or eliminate the need to vibrate around reinforcement structures (rebar).
>
> If using Portland based cements a superplasticizer can greatly reduce the water absorption rates.
>
> http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/Concrete_Admixtures/02a001sa38/02a001sa38100/02a001sa38106.html
>
> Grancrete is also an option if you are close enough to a distributor since by nature it's hydrophobic. A thin layer of Kool-seal or similar would guarantee waterproofing.
>
> Mixing a batch of polymerized stucco is not difficult, you simply mix the stucco as normal and then add the admixture (which is almost always just latex and an alcohol as a wetting agent).
>
> Check out the Sika products. I've used them alot with very good results. I put a water tank 7 feet down into the ground for temperature stabilization and then poured polymer-modified concrete around it. Worked very well and you notice even after getting wet, freezing, and then thawing, it does not retain the water.
>
> Tad
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@> wrote:
> >
> > Tad,
> > Can you expand on this "then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that." Â Can you remember product names and formulae?
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: zenseeker70 <mrinnovation@>
> >
> >
> > Â
> > There are multiple ways to waterproof porous materials like papercrete, but they cost up to 25 percent of the cost of the building in many cases. When I used to be in the waterproof decking and basement sealing business back in the 1980's we used different methods:
> >
> > 1. Multi-Chem. This is a thick rubber membrane that goes in in 10 mil thickness depending on substrate. It is solvent based and is rolled on or sprayed on with airless sprayers. This stuff was over 120 dollars per 5 gallon back in the 80's but it made any concrete, wood, or fiber reinforced surface absolutely waterproof for decades of foot traffic. You could also spray it onto block wall basements and it would perform the same. No amount of groundwater would penetrate the membrane, even after decades. The company has since been sold to Haliburton, but the product is now made by other companies for basement sealing. It is grey to blue in color, and requires acetone to thin it and clean up, and respirators are a must for application. Very nasty stuff but it gets the job done every time.
> >
> > 2. EPDM rubber membrane we used on basement walls and they were glued into place with at least 2 inches of overlap on the seams.
> >
> > 3. Partial waterproofing can be done by using a closed cell polyurethane foam over the substrate, then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that. This allows backfill without puncturing the material. This system is still used in the monolithic underground dome buildings I've seen built over the years. Sometimes the airform is left in place and that provides the waterproofing over the closed cell foam.
> >
> > 4. Old school methods such as tar and bituminous might work with papercrete but would take some experimentation and would degrade faster than other methods.
> >
> > http://www.undergroundhousing.com/
> >
> > The groundwater level like other have mentioned is a big issue. Up here in the white mountains of Arizona it's not a problem since we have water at 350-750 feet and one of the driest environments in the world, but in Texas with shallow ground water, I think I would have to side with others that it would be risky to build this way with papercrete, unless you have sealed outer walls made of 8x8x16 block, then waterproofed as I have outlined above. The papercrete in this case would only be used for a thermal break from ground to help inside temperatures.
> >
> > Tad
> >
> > --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello people. Long time no see! Well guys work and daily life gets in my fasinasion about papercrete a lot so I end up not getting to spend much time on it. However soon (like in 2 months) I will be able to start my house. As you should know, the earth is absolutely the best insulater against the heat of summer (think, far south texas, 100 degrees everyday for months on end...for real!). And, I have access to a backhoe and can operate it. AND, if its underground I won't have to pay taxes on it. So here's the BIG question. What is a sure fire no guessing truely proven way to make papercrete waterproof? Now I want to clearify. I don't mean I want to know if it will work just a little bit, I want to know it will work FOR SURE! no cactus juice works well, no I heard you use linseed oil...I need it to actually BE waterproof as now I am concidering building the house underground. To ease fears, I allready think I know about how to keep it from colapsing
> > in. right now I am only researching on how to make papercrete WATERPROOF. Totally waterproof, no seapage, No dampness threw the wall...TOTAL waterproofing. NOW.....can anybody tell me what I need to know. I will await an answer and I will check back after work today. Thanks for your time.
> > >
> > > s.
> > >
> >
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
That video is just plum amazing...But I am thinking DrylocK as an additive and plain ol' felt paper on the earth side as a barrier right now so far. I may hire an engineer to design it. I might go right up there to the college and see who is going to graduate soon from their building engineeer course. They will work for pennies on the doller to design it because they are just starting out.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, seniorfinancialplanningins <devonia111@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEnsYMPccuQ
> Â
> Ultra-Ever Dry is a superhydrophobic (water) and oleophobic (hydrocarbons) coating that will completely repel almost any liquid. Ultra-Ever Dry uses proprietary nanotechnology to coat an object and create a barrier of air on its surface. This barrier repels water, oil and other liquids unlike any coating seen before. The other breakthrough associated with Ultra-Ever Dry is the superior coating adherence and abrasion resistance allowing it to be used in all kinds of applications where durability is required.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...>
> To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
>
>
> Â
>
> Greetings,
> I would not count on this one. If the vehicle doesn't move and is not
> street legal, then yes it counts as a building. I have to pay for my
> fema trailer as living space, even though no one lives in it. It is my
> guest house. It has wheels, for that matter, so does an old mobile I
> use for storage, but it is taxable as well. Frankly, insurance and
> plates cost more than taxes, at least in my county, which is Grimes.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Garth & Kim Travis
> http://www.therosecoloredforest.com/
> Bedias, Texas
>
> On 2/19/2013 5:19 AM, waterengineman101 wrote:
> >...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers
> > and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well then you
> > won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
> >
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
"I have to pay for my fema trailer as living space, even though no one lives in it"...They are stealing from you then. That thing have a licence plate? Then THAT's how the taxes are paid on it...not threw property taxs. And just because you don't register it does not mean it is okay for them to give you taxation without representation....U.S.A. (us baby!) fought a war over that with england. Sounds like you need to hire an attorney.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
> I would not count on this one. If the vehicle doesn't move and is not
> street legal, then yes it counts as a building. I have to pay for my
> fema trailer as living space, even though no one lives in it. It is my
> guest house. It has wheels, for that matter, so does an old mobile I
> use for storage, but it is taxable as well. Frankly, insurance and
> plates cost more than taxes, at least in my county, which is Grimes.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Garth & Kim Travis
> www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
> Bedias, Texas
>
> On 2/19/2013 5:19 AM, waterengineman101 wrote:
> >...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers
> > and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well then you
> > won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
> >
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
I will have to give it some thought.
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
I don't think I would use fish netting.
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[papercreters] Fibrecrete repair of fire damaged wall
Hi All............ it has been awhile. Thought I'd share an inexpensive save we did on a fire damaged wall. In the photos section you will see how a fire took the back wall of the shop out. In November and the scramble was on to keep the snow out. We had scrap roofing as you can see.... then on the charred yet stable portions we hung discarded industrial grade carpet for lath. Built out window trim with pieces of styrofoam and chicken wire. Here you see the scratch coat we applied in just an hour using the "TIROLESSA" mortar sprayer. We are waiting for warmer temps to do the 2 remaining coats.
Cheers.......... Bob
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Wednesday, February 20, 2013
[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Pour the papercrete against an impervious surface with no gaps. Poly or such! Make sure cements are at least one hundred pounds per cubic yard of papercrete.
Sent from my iPad
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
I never said Barry reccomended it, I said he said there were ways to do it. Which in my opinion tells me that he would recommend it. He said it was possible and he has done it. Hell I just got am email from the man not 5 days ago and he was trying to sell me the information on how to do it for crying out loud. Now if he is willing to sell me the information that he says will do what I want it to do wouldn't YOU think that is was some sort of reccomendation? I mean, come on, give me "a little" credit for doing at least SOME research on my subject.
" Barry Fuller does not recommend using Papercrete to build underground shelters no matter how it is waterproofed either."...and how do YOU absolulely without a doubt know this? You talked to him or something?
"Since you claim to have read his website, I'm surprised that you weren't already aware of this fact."...go to his websight. Press the construction tab. Then press the waterproofing tab. That is your start. He recommended DrylocK for one. Yes nothing there about underground but plenty about waterproofing. Now combine that with what he told me in his email and you can put 2 and 2 together and see that he is saying it will work. That or heaven forbid he is only lying to gain a profit....which I allways leave open for the benifit of the doubt. here is a copy of his exact wording...." Yes, I have two proven techniques for doing what you have asked for.
However, you may have missed the information on my "Contact" page which talks about how I make my livelihood. It's by charging a small fee for what it has taken me years and thousands of dollars to find out about papercrete. The fee is well worth your time as you have already found out. There are a lot of people out there with ideas about how to do things, but very, very few with direct hands-on experience.
I have personally completed one approach to your problem, and have been using it for years. The other approach I personally witnessed and investigated. I found it to work. Go to my "Contact" page and save yourself a lot of time and money.
Thanks.
Barry
Now desiffer.....would you not think he is saying plainly there that it IS possible???
"As far as alternative underground construction techniques, there are many. Earthbag probably is the least expensive.".....yes. earthbagging will and does work, even underground. But you still need to waterproof it, I don't care what anybody says,because it's below ground...end of sentance.
yes cargo containers will work. But have you priced them lately? And you STILL would have to waterproof it. Plus put a covering of somesort over the painted metal...if not it will rust threw in 2 twos or so. 'Happened to the branch Davidians' school buses they burried because they didn't cover and seal them right.
"The point is that keeping water out of any underground structure involves a whole series of inter-related interdependent systems."....ya....TELL ME about it. I know.
"As far as you not understanding why grown men enjoy football. That is clearly your choice and I have no problem with you making that choice. I only clarify this point for everyone else on Papercreters since you made it clear through your tone that you do not want to get the point, which is your choice." Okay....sooooooooo I can not like football then? Like I said...it doesn't make me money,so why do it. But to each his own I guess. No disrespect intended as you were implying though. Games don't interest me anymore. They did when I was a hell of a lot younger, say like, in my teens and twenties...but not now. I guess that stems from being working class pour...lower middle class you could say...and struggling in real life and getting older by the day and no way out but to bust ace and get through the day and try to recouperate the best I can at the end of the day after having worked hard all day. Dam....where'd that come from? LOL! But tiddlywink tournament?? where did THAT come from Slurryman?
Anyway, overall, I still beleive building underground with papercrete is possible.....I just need to do more research on it.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "JayH" <slurryguy@...> wrote:
>
> Barry Fuller does not recommend using Papercrete to build underground shelters no matter how it is waterproofed either. Since you claim to have read his website, I'm surprised that you weren't already aware of this fact.
>
> Barry advocates elastomerics for above ground waterproofing of papercrete, and some other specialty uses. In those applications it works great. Of course, this is competely different than what you are proposing.
>
> As far as alternative underground construction techniques, there are many. Earthbag probably is the least expensive. Poured reinforced concrete probably the most expensive. Then there are a whole host of other techniques from stone masonry, to buried cargo containers, to earthship, and many more. Each different technique has advantages and disadvantages, pretty much like everything else in life.
>
> I also would add that waterproofing an underground structure involves a great deal more than simply coating the structural shell with a waterproofing. To do it correctly, begins with site selection to avoid water in the first place. Then one must excavate sufficiently and provide subsurface drainage to prevent water from exerting constant hydraulic pressure as well as avoiding any chance of frost heaving or any other form of ground shifting which tends to cause cracks that even the best waterproofing systems cannot prevent from leaking. Once the structural shell is completed and waterproof coatings applied, correct backfilling and appropriate compaction is critical. Backfilling with non permeable materials next to the shell will not allow water to drain away properly. Not to mention the potential for damaging waterproofing layers during the backfilling process. Finally, after backfilling, probably the most important factor is final grading and landscaping. Those final measures of grading and landscaping are probably just as important if not more important than whatever waterproof coatings someone may apply to the underground shell.
>
> The point is that keeping water out of any underground structure involves a whole series of inter-related interdependent systems. Make mistakes in any one of those systems and it compromises all the others.
>
> I once more encourage starting small. Perhaps you might want to consider a project similar to a small underground root cellar as a starter project. Learn what works well for you on something that requires a smaller investment of time and money before undertaking a larger project that eats up a great deal more time and money.
>
>
> As far as you not understanding why grown men enjoy football. That is clearly your choice and I have no problem with you making that choice. The point was that enjoying a gathering of friends and/or family, whether that be to watch a football game, celebrate a birthday party, holidays, a poker game, a pizza party, ballroom dancing, bible study, quilting bee, tiddlywink tournament, or any other reason that people gather, does not require a big expensive house. The gathering can take place in a variety of spaces. I only clarify this point for everyone else on Papercreters since you made it clear through your tone that you do not want to get the point, which is your choice. I have neither the desire nor the time to judge anyone's life choices but my own.
>
>
>
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" <shanerileyservices@> wrote:
> >
> > "No matter what someone
> > uses to try to waterproof it, it will be insufficient."....And HOW do you know this? I was reading Barry Fullers websight last night (livinginpaperdotcom). He plainly wrote that there ARE ways to waterproof papercrete. Using UGL DryLoK is just one way. Those makers swear no water will come through.
> >
> > "There are other far more effective and reliable methods to build an underground shelter. Many of them can be very inexpensive."....And what might they be since that is the avenue I am on.
> >
> > "Second... if someone is considering building underground, please make certain that you are building on HIGH GROUND!!!!"...Got you covered on that one.
> >
> > "Select a State/County/Community that has low property taxes in the first place."...Not possible. And disreguard what I said about taxes. That was my business anyway.
> >
> > "Short of building a submarine buried in the ground, your waterproofing is doomed to fail regardless of the construction system you employ."....Jesus, Talk about dooms dayers. And how much research have YOU done on this subject before making THAT comment?
> >
> > "Garages and Barns are also useful, but taxed at a higher rate than a shed, but also taxed at a lower rate than a house. Don't hesitate to build a Garage or Barn if that is what you need, but don't build a garage or barn to be a storage shed. Sheds are the cheapest storage you can build." ...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well then you won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
> >
> > " I watched the Superbowl at a friend's farm shop building. He just moved his truck and tractor outside and pushed all his tools to one wall. There was a huge expanse of space and he rolled out a carpet and moved in a bunch of furniture and a big TV. BBQ was plentiful. We played touch football with the kids indoors. Great fun.".....I never could understand the concept of grown men playing football. It don't make me money...so why do it is what I allways figured.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Barry Fuller does not recommend using Papercrete to build underground shelters no matter how it is waterproofed either. Since you claim to have read his website, I'm surprised that you weren't already aware of this fact.
Barry advocates elastomerics for above ground waterproofing of papercrete, and some other specialty uses. In those applications it works great. Of course, this is competely different than what you are proposing.
As far as alternative underground construction techniques, there are many. Earthbag probably is the least expensive. Poured reinforced concrete probably the most expensive. Then there are a whole host of other techniques from stone masonry, to buried cargo containers, to earthship, and many more. Each different technique has advantages and disadvantages, pretty much like everything else in life.
I also would add that waterproofing an underground structure involves a great deal more than simply coating the structural shell with a waterproofing. To do it correctly, begins with site selection to avoid water in the first place. Then one must excavate sufficiently and provide subsurface drainage to prevent water from exerting constant hydraulic pressure as well as avoiding any chance of frost heaving or any other form of ground shifting which tends to cause cracks that even the best waterproofing systems cannot prevent from leaking. Once the structural shell is completed and waterproof coatings applied, correct backfilling and appropriate compaction is critical. Backfilling with non permeable materials next to the shell will not allow water to drain away properly. Not to mention the potential for damaging waterproofing layers during the backfilling process. Finally, after backfilling, probably the most important factor is final grading and landscaping. Those final measures of grading and landscaping are probably just as important if not more important than whatever waterproof coatings someone may apply to the underground shell.
The point is that keeping water out of any underground structure involves a whole series of inter-related interdependent systems. Make mistakes in any one of those systems and it compromises all the others.
I once more encourage starting small. Perhaps you might want to consider a project similar to a small underground root cellar as a starter project. Learn what works well for you on something that requires a smaller investment of time and money before undertaking a larger project that eats up a great deal more time and money.
As far as you not understanding why grown men enjoy football. That is clearly your choice and I have no problem with you making that choice. The point was that enjoying a gathering of friends and/or family, whether that be to watch a football game, celebrate a birthday party, holidays, a poker game, a pizza party, ballroom dancing, bible study, quilting bee, tiddlywink tournament, or any other reason that people gather, does not require a big expensive house. The gathering can take place in a variety of spaces. I only clarify this point for everyone else on Papercreters since you made it clear through your tone that you do not want to get the point, which is your choice. I have neither the desire nor the time to judge anyone's life choices but my own.
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" <shanerileyservices@...> wrote:
>
> "No matter what someone
> uses to try to waterproof it, it will be insufficient."....And HOW do you know this? I was reading Barry Fullers websight last night (livinginpaperdotcom). He plainly wrote that there ARE ways to waterproof papercrete. Using UGL DryLoK is just one way. Those makers swear no water will come through.
>
> "There are other far more effective and reliable methods to build an underground shelter. Many of them can be very inexpensive."....And what might they be since that is the avenue I am on.
>
> "Second... if someone is considering building underground, please make certain that you are building on HIGH GROUND!!!!"...Got you covered on that one.
>
> "Select a State/County/Community that has low property taxes in the first place."...Not possible. And disreguard what I said about taxes. That was my business anyway.
>
> "Short of building a submarine buried in the ground, your waterproofing is doomed to fail regardless of the construction system you employ."....Jesus, Talk about dooms dayers. And how much research have YOU done on this subject before making THAT comment?
>
> "Garages and Barns are also useful, but taxed at a higher rate than a shed, but also taxed at a lower rate than a house. Don't hesitate to build a Garage or Barn if that is what you need, but don't build a garage or barn to be a storage shed. Sheds are the cheapest storage you can build." ...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well then you won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
>
> " I watched the Superbowl at a friend's farm shop building. He just moved his truck and tractor outside and pushed all his tools to one wall. There was a huge expanse of space and he rolled out a carpet and moved in a bunch of furniture and a big TV. BBQ was plentiful. We played touch football with the kids indoors. Great fun.".....I never could understand the concept of grown men playing football. It don't make me money...so why do it is what I allways figured.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
I would not count on this one. If the vehicle doesn't move and is not
street legal, then yes it counts as a building. I have to pay for my
fema trailer as living space, even though no one lives in it. It is my
guest house. It has wheels, for that matter, so does an old mobile I
use for storage, but it is taxable as well. Frankly, insurance and
plates cost more than taxes, at least in my county, which is Grimes.
Bright Blessings,
Garth & Kim Travis
http://www.therosecoloredforest.com/
Bedias, Texas
On 2/19/2013 5:19 AM, waterengineman101 wrote:
>...And if you Just use 18 wheeler box type (cargo) trailers
> and leave the wheels on them and use them as storage sheds well then you
> won't be taxed at all on them. Old U-haul truck work good too.
>
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013
[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
I almost forgot Merlex. They make a good water resistant stucco as well that would go very well over a papercrete substrate with a little reinforcement of course:
http://www.merlex.com/extstuc_basex.htm
I believe Steve over at http://www.flyingconcrete.com/ goes over some of these issues with portland based concrete and stucco's as well. He has built alot of those barrel (nubian vaults) you guys were talking about. Click on vaults, and then find his underground wine cellar made of two thin shell vaults.
Tad
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> Tad,
> Can you expand on this "then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that." Â Can you remember product names and formulae?
> Thanks
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: zenseeker70 <mrinnovation@...>
>
>
> Â
> There are multiple ways to waterproof porous materials like papercrete, but they cost up to 25 percent of the cost of the building in many cases. When I used to be in the waterproof decking and basement sealing business back in the 1980's we used different methods:
>
> 1. Multi-Chem. This is a thick rubber membrane that goes in in 10 mil thickness depending on substrate. It is solvent based and is rolled on or sprayed on with airless sprayers. This stuff was over 120 dollars per 5 gallon back in the 80's but it made any concrete, wood, or fiber reinforced surface absolutely waterproof for decades of foot traffic. You could also spray it onto block wall basements and it would perform the same. No amount of groundwater would penetrate the membrane, even after decades. The company has since been sold to Haliburton, but the product is now made by other companies for basement sealing. It is grey to blue in color, and requires acetone to thin it and clean up, and respirators are a must for application. Very nasty stuff but it gets the job done every time.
>
> 2. EPDM rubber membrane we used on basement walls and they were glued into place with at least 2 inches of overlap on the seams.
>
> 3. Partial waterproofing can be done by using a closed cell polyurethane foam over the substrate, then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that. This allows backfill without puncturing the material. This system is still used in the monolithic underground dome buildings I've seen built over the years. Sometimes the airform is left in place and that provides the waterproofing over the closed cell foam.
>
> 4. Old school methods such as tar and bituminous might work with papercrete but would take some experimentation and would degrade faster than other methods.
>
> http://www.undergroundhousing.com/
>
> The groundwater level like other have mentioned is a big issue. Up here in the white mountains of Arizona it's not a problem since we have water at 350-750 feet and one of the driest environments in the world, but in Texas with shallow ground water, I think I would have to side with others that it would be risky to build this way with papercrete, unless you have sealed outer walls made of 8x8x16 block, then waterproofed as I have outlined above. The papercrete in this case would only be used for a thermal break from ground to help inside temperatures.
>
> Tad
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" wrote:
> >
> > Hello people. Long time no see! Well guys work and daily life gets in my fasinasion about papercrete a lot so I end up not getting to spend much time on it. However soon (like in 2 months) I will be able to start my house. As you should know, the earth is absolutely the best insulater against the heat of summer (think, far south texas, 100 degrees everyday for months on end...for real!). And, I have access to a backhoe and can operate it. AND, if its underground I won't have to pay taxes on it. So here's the BIG question. What is a sure fire no guessing truely proven way to make papercrete waterproof? Now I want to clearify. I don't mean I want to know if it will work just a little bit, I want to know it will work FOR SURE! no cactus juice works well, no I heard you use linseed oil...I need it to actually BE waterproof as now I am concidering building the house underground. To ease fears, I allready think I know about how to keep it from colapsing
> in. right now I am only researching on how to make papercrete WATERPROOF. Totally waterproof, no seapage, No dampness threw the wall...TOTAL waterproofing. NOW.....can anybody tell me what I need to know. I will await an answer and I will check back after work today. Thanks for your time.
> >
> > s.
> >
>
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[papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Sure. Most of the stucco base coat products on the market are made for water resistance, and typically use latex additives, which also improve workability. Some are even supposed to be water proof. Most all of the additives (I.E. Sika) create a polymer-modified concrete which is at least water resistant. At the batch plant it was very common to add these to our mixes for cold weather and where we knew there would be constant freeze/thaw standing water. It reduces the probability of spalling and other concrete defects from freeze/thaw cycles. Latex polymers also reduce or eliminate the need to vibrate around reinforcement structures (rebar).
If using Portland based cements a superplasticizer can greatly reduce the water absorption rates.
http://usa.sika.com/en/solutions_products/02/Concrete_Admixtures/02a001sa38/02a001sa38100/02a001sa38106.html
Grancrete is also an option if you are close enough to a distributor since by nature it's hydrophobic. A thin layer of Kool-seal or similar would guarantee waterproofing.
Mixing a batch of polymerized stucco is not difficult, you simply mix the stucco as normal and then add the admixture (which is almost always just latex and an alcohol as a wetting agent).
Check out the Sika products. I've used them alot with very good results. I put a water tank 7 feet down into the ground for temperature stabilization and then poured polymer-modified concrete around it. Worked very well and you notice even after getting wet, freezing, and then thawing, it does not retain the water.
Tad
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> Tad,
> Can you expand on this "then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that." Â Can you remember product names and formulae?
> Thanks
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: zenseeker70 <mrinnovation@...>
>
>
> Â
> There are multiple ways to waterproof porous materials like papercrete, but they cost up to 25 percent of the cost of the building in many cases. When I used to be in the waterproof decking and basement sealing business back in the 1980's we used different methods:
>
> 1. Multi-Chem. This is a thick rubber membrane that goes in in 10 mil thickness depending on substrate. It is solvent based and is rolled on or sprayed on with airless sprayers. This stuff was over 120 dollars per 5 gallon back in the 80's but it made any concrete, wood, or fiber reinforced surface absolutely waterproof for decades of foot traffic. You could also spray it onto block wall basements and it would perform the same. No amount of groundwater would penetrate the membrane, even after decades. The company has since been sold to Haliburton, but the product is now made by other companies for basement sealing. It is grey to blue in color, and requires acetone to thin it and clean up, and respirators are a must for application. Very nasty stuff but it gets the job done every time.
>
> 2. EPDM rubber membrane we used on basement walls and they were glued into place with at least 2 inches of overlap on the seams.
>
> 3. Partial waterproofing can be done by using a closed cell polyurethane foam over the substrate, then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that. This allows backfill without puncturing the material. This system is still used in the monolithic underground dome buildings I've seen built over the years. Sometimes the airform is left in place and that provides the waterproofing over the closed cell foam.
>
> 4. Old school methods such as tar and bituminous might work with papercrete but would take some experimentation and would degrade faster than other methods.
>
> http://www.undergroundhousing.com/
>
> The groundwater level like other have mentioned is a big issue. Up here in the white mountains of Arizona it's not a problem since we have water at 350-750 feet and one of the driest environments in the world, but in Texas with shallow ground water, I think I would have to side with others that it would be risky to build this way with papercrete, unless you have sealed outer walls made of 8x8x16 block, then waterproofed as I have outlined above. The papercrete in this case would only be used for a thermal break from ground to help inside temperatures.
>
> Tad
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" wrote:
> >
> > Hello people. Long time no see! Well guys work and daily life gets in my fasinasion about papercrete a lot so I end up not getting to spend much time on it. However soon (like in 2 months) I will be able to start my house. As you should know, the earth is absolutely the best insulater against the heat of summer (think, far south texas, 100 degrees everyday for months on end...for real!). And, I have access to a backhoe and can operate it. AND, if its underground I won't have to pay taxes on it. So here's the BIG question. What is a sure fire no guessing truely proven way to make papercrete waterproof? Now I want to clearify. I don't mean I want to know if it will work just a little bit, I want to know it will work FOR SURE! no cactus juice works well, no I heard you use linseed oil...I need it to actually BE waterproof as now I am concidering building the house underground. To ease fears, I allready think I know about how to keep it from colapsing
> in. right now I am only researching on how to make papercrete WATERPROOF. Totally waterproof, no seapage, No dampness threw the wall...TOTAL waterproofing. NOW.....can anybody tell me what I need to know. I will await an answer and I will check back after work today. Thanks for your time.
> >
> > s.
> >
>
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Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
From: zenseeker70 <mrinnovation@frontiernet.net>
1. Multi-Chem. This is a thick rubber membrane that goes in in 10 mil thickness depending on substrate. It is solvent based and is rolled on or sprayed on with airless sprayers. This stuff was over 120 dollars per 5 gallon back in the 80's but it made any concrete, wood, or fiber reinforced surface absolutely waterproof for decades of foot traffic. You could also spray it onto block wall basements and it would perform the same. No amount of groundwater would penetrate the membrane, even after decades. The company has since been sold to Haliburton, but the product is now made by other companies for basement sealing. It is grey to blue in color, and requires acetone to thin it and clean up, and respirators are a must for application. Very nasty stuff but it gets the job done every time.
2. EPDM rubber membrane we used on basement walls and they were glued into place with at least 2 inches of overlap on the seams.
3. Partial waterproofing can be done by using a closed cell polyurethane foam over the substrate, then a thin player of latex based stucco material over that. This allows backfill without puncturing the material. This system is still used in the monolithic underground dome buildings I've seen built over the years. Sometimes the airform is left in place and that provides the waterproofing over the closed cell foam.
4. Old school methods such as tar and bituminous might work with papercrete but would take some experimentation and would degrade faster than other methods.
http://www.undergroundhousing.com/
The groundwater level like other have mentioned is a big issue. Up here in the white mountains of Arizona it's not a problem since we have water at 350-750 feet and one of the driest environments in the world, but in Texas with shallow ground water, I think I would have to side with others that it would be risky to build this way with papercrete, unless you have sealed outer walls made of 8x8x16 block, then waterproofed as I have outlined above. The papercrete in this case would only be used for a thermal break from ground to help inside temperatures.
Tad
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "waterengineman101" wrote:
>
> Hello people. Long time no see! Well guys work and daily life gets in my fasinasion about papercrete a lot so I end up not getting to spend much time on it. However soon (like in 2 months) I will be able to start my house. As you should know, the earth is absolutely the best insulater against the heat of summer (think, far south texas, 100 degrees everyday for months on end...for real!). And, I have access to a backhoe and can operate it. AND, if its underground I won't have to pay taxes on it. So here's the BIG question. What is a sure fire no guessing truely proven way to make papercrete waterproof? Now I want to clearify. I don't mean I want to know if it will work just a little bit, I want to know it will work FOR SURE! no cactus juice works well, no I heard you use linseed oil...I need it to actually BE waterproof as now I am concidering building the house underground. To ease fears, I allready think I know about how to keep it from colapsing in. right now I am only researching on how to make papercrete WATERPROOF. Totally waterproof, no seapage, No dampness threw the wall...TOTAL waterproofing. NOW.....can anybody tell me what I need to know. I will await an answer and I will check back after work today. Thanks for your time.
>
> s.
>
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Re: [papercreters] Re: Rapidset cements and papercrete
Hi,
Ah, ok. Different formulation than we have here in the U.S. The Calcium based stuff is made in China and imported for Home Depot, Lowes and other home improvement stores. I guess down in Oz they are making their own formula based on Magnesium. The Ammonia based cement is not the best type. I'm surprised they are making that formula.
> the rapidset concrete i used was Rapidset *60* and it said on the front of
The Mg based cements with Ammonia have water absorption problems and are not to be used in wet environments without sealing. They cannot be used underwater like other formula's either. And like you said they give off Ammonia gas while they cure. It appears to me after some research that the only attractive formula is Mgo using Mg Phosphates for the reaction. All formula's however do bond well with paper and other fibers. Far better bonding strength than Portland.
Tad> wrote:
> the bag that it was mag phos cement based- it definitely
>
> had ammonium something in it- hopefully not ammonium sulfate bit rather
> ammonium phosphate-unpleasant smell and generally
>
> unpleasant as well as expensive. i tried to look at the information sheet
> to see what else was in it but you had to register and i got
>
> an error page. i gave up then as i wouldn't wish to use it again. i just
> hope it holds as the $80 core of the plinth for my current
>
> sculpture as a retrofit would be quite impossible!
>
> cheers, eo
>
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:20 PM, zenseeker70
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > It looks like the rapidset cements are actually Calcium Sulfoaluminate
> > Cement and not MgO based. If this is the case then Rapidset should react
> > with Zinc coatings, but I have not heard of MgO not being compatible with
> > chicken wire and other galvanized coatings. Calcium Sulfoaluminate Cements
> > also reach a high early strength similar to MgO and should be compatible
> > with paper fibers as well. Might be worth a try.
> >
> > http://www.ctscement.com/Cement_MSDS.asp
> >
> > Tad
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [papercreters] Re: underground papercrete house? How do I waterproof it?
Yes...maybe it could. Do you have a link for it??
--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Devonia wrote:
>
> Owens builds earth bags homes under ground maybe his site could help you
>
> Devonia
>
> On Feb 18, 2013, at 5:53 AM, "waterengineman101" wrote:
>
> > Hello people. Long time no see! Well guys work and daily life gets in my fasinasion about papercrete a lot so I end up not getting to spend much time on it. However soon (like in 2 months) I will be able to start my house. As you should know, the earth is absolutely the best insulater against the heat of summer (think, far south texas, 100 degrees everyday for months on end...for real!). And, I have access to a backhoe and can operate it. AND, if its underground I won't have to pay taxes on it. So here's the BIG question. What is a sure fire no guessing truely proven way to make papercrete waterproof? Now I want to clearify. I don't mean I want to know if it will work just a little bit, I want to know it will work FOR SURE! no cactus juice works well, no I heard you use linseed oil...I need it to actually BE waterproof as now I am concidering building the house underground. To ease fears, I allready think I know about how to keep it from colapsing in. right now I am only researching on how to make papercrete WATERPROOF. Totally waterproof, no seapage, No dampness threw the wall...TOTAL waterproofing. NOW.....can anybody tell me what I need to know. I will await an answer and I will check back after work today. Thanks for your time.
> >
> > s.
> >
> >
>
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