Re: [papercreters] ceramipapercrete

Didn't I just read somewhere that Mars is experiencing global warming similar to Earth?

 

Dan

----- Original Message -----

From: Forrest Charnock

To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:16 PM

Subject: Re: [papercreters] ceramipapercrete

 

I would not lose too much sleep over Global Warming seeing as the
climate has been warmer , much warmer , in the past and the result was
greater food production.
Many leading scientist from M.I.T. to Yale say it is a hoax and they
just got caught again :cooking the books" to "prove' their idea.
I remember 40 years ago scientist wanting to damn the Bering Straits
and set of H-Bombs to melt the Polar Ice Caps to prevent the end of
humanity due to Global Cooling, they believed we were entering yet
another Ice Age. They have yet to prove there were 2 Ice Ages but
most people are so ignorant of science they accept what is presented
as a 'consensus" as absolute truth. Not so long ago the "consensus:
was that blood letting was good medicine, George Washington would beg
to differ if he could.

On 1/31/13, eo greensticks eogreensticks@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> interesting yes, potentially groundbreaking.
>
> i am no chemist (dredging ancient memory from 35 years ago jr college
> chemistry jag!)
>
> and am more a ' teaspoon tester' than scientific analyzer* however*
>
> i love the way papercrete feels, compared to cement which i do not like the
> feel of-
>
>
> but there are obviously some limitations which need to be overcome.
>
>
> given climate change and the rainfall patterns seemingly in shift, i think
>
> it better to design for all possible conditions, not rely on choosing a dry
> zone to build with papercrete.
>
> Also, i live in Tasmania where we get a drought and a flood and then a
> fire perhaps
>
> all on the same day-that's the extreme example here-
>
> most days, we just get 4 seasons!
>
>
> the mystery to me is WHY papercrete ' works' as i understand that
> portland cement does not bind to fibre-
>
> (it has been explained to me , by Charmaine i think, that the portland
> encases the fibre and that is how it works...)
>
> but the porous nature (or do i mean pervious? not sure...) of portland
> cement admits water
>
> which rots the fibre, resulting in a failure of the material in wet
> conditions.
>
>
> on the other hand,
>
> Magnesium Phosphate cement Binds with fibre and additionally will Not admit
> water.
>
> It is more expensive than portland but the offset is you can use more fibre
> in the mix which sounds like
>
> Papercrete to me...
>
> as the MgPO4 concrete it a chemically bonded ceramic, it is water and fire
> proof-
>
> (living in dry schlerophyll forest, fire proof is good!)
>
> also, it is acceptable to soil life
>
> (i once poured out a bucket of water from washing the portland from my
> tools
>
> and a number of worms came writhing to the surface in agony-horrible)
>
> not to mention the CO2 footprint of Portland Cement-virtually a kilo of
> CO2 per kilo of PC...
>
>
> MgPO4 concrete absorbs CO2 as it cures altho with papercrete, maybe not as
> there
>
> is something about 'carbonation' to get this to happen.
>
>
> A sculptor called Michael Collins uses MgPO4 concrete- he is on the net-
>
> painting the slurry on cloth to develop emergency shelter- he says dip a
> piece of paper
>
> in the slurry and it becomes as if encased in ceramic.
>
>
> it is worth a trip to the US to try a bag of Grancrete or Ceramicrete-
>
> we can't buy it here!
>
>
> there are numerous patents and lots of scientific papers on ceramicrete
>
> but it is slow work for me to get the gist of it! I have the general idea,
> just working out
>
> how to get the right proportions by volume and how to apply realistically
> to building.
>
> Starting small with sculpture and plant pots.
>
>
> As soon as i can get the fine ground dead burned MgO ( i have finally found
> a supplier in Oz-
>
> it wasn't easy) i will begin testing and put up some posts about the
> results-
>
>
> but i would love to know if anyone out there has already tried
>
> to make 'ceramipapercete ' and what sort of result they had?
>
> (maybe i just haven't tried the right 'search word' !)
>
>
> cheers, eo
>

--
Forrest Charnock

---

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[papercreters] From friends

http://www.monacella.ca/7friends.php?ygedyxjb=r8%ry%l0%83%z6%c3%l0%d0%y3%s7%k4%95



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Re: [papercreters] ceramipapercrete

I would not lose too much sleep over Global Warming seeing as the
climate has been warmer , much warmer , in the past and the result was
greater food production.
Many leading scientist from M.I.T. to Yale say it is a hoax and they
just got caught again :cooking the books" to "prove' their idea.
I remember 40 years ago scientist wanting to damn the Bering Straits
and set of H-Bombs to melt the Polar Ice Caps to prevent the end of
humanity due to Global Cooling, they believed we were entering yet
another Ice Age. They have yet to prove there were 2 Ice Ages but
most people are so ignorant of science they accept what is presented
as a 'consensus" as absolute truth. Not so long ago the "consensus:
was that blood letting was good medicine, George Washington would beg
to differ if he could.

On 1/31/13, eo greensticks <eogreensticks@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> interesting yes, potentially groundbreaking.
>
> i am no chemist (dredging ancient memory from 35 years ago jr college
> chemistry jag!)
>
> and am more a ' teaspoon tester' than scientific analyzer* however*
>
> i love the way papercrete feels, compared to cement which i do not like the
> feel of-
>
>
> but there are obviously some limitations which need to be overcome.
>
>
> given climate change and the rainfall patterns seemingly in shift, i think
>
> it better to design for all possible conditions, not rely on choosing a dry
> zone to build with papercrete.
>
> Also, i live in Tasmania where we get a drought and a flood and then a
> fire perhaps
>
> all on the same day-that's the extreme example here-
>
> most days, we just get 4 seasons!
>
>
> the mystery to me is WHY papercrete ' works' as i understand that
> portland cement does not bind to fibre-
>
> (it has been explained to me , by Charmaine i think, that the portland
> encases the fibre and that is how it works...)
>
> but the porous nature (or do i mean pervious? not sure...) of portland
> cement admits water
>
> which rots the fibre, resulting in a failure of the material in wet
> conditions.
>
>
> on the other hand,
>
> Magnesium Phosphate cement Binds with fibre and additionally will Not admit
> water.
>
> It is more expensive than portland but the offset is you can use more fibre
> in the mix which sounds like
>
> Papercrete to me...
>
> as the MgPO4 concrete it a chemically bonded ceramic, it is water and fire
> proof-
>
> (living in dry schlerophyll forest, fire proof is good!)
>
> also, it is acceptable to soil life
>
> (i once poured out a bucket of water from washing the portland from my
> tools
>
> and a number of worms came writhing to the surface in agony-horrible)
>
> not to mention the CO2 footprint of Portland Cement-virtually a kilo of
> CO2 per kilo of PC...
>
>
> MgPO4 concrete absorbs CO2 as it cures altho with papercrete, maybe not as
> there
>
> is something about 'carbonation' to get this to happen.
>
>
> A sculptor called Michael Collins uses MgPO4 concrete- he is on the net-
>
> painting the slurry on cloth to develop emergency shelter- he says dip a
> piece of paper
>
> in the slurry and it becomes as if encased in ceramic.
>
>
> it is worth a trip to the US to try a bag of Grancrete or Ceramicrete-
>
> we can't buy it here!
>
>
> there are numerous patents and lots of scientific papers on ceramicrete
>
> but it is slow work for me to get the gist of it! I have the general idea,
> just working out
>
> how to get the right proportions by volume and how to apply realistically
> to building.
>
> Starting small with sculpture and plant pots.
>
>
> As soon as i can get the fine ground dead burned MgO ( i have finally found
> a supplier in Oz-
>
> it wasn't easy) i will begin testing and put up some posts about the
> results-
>
>
> but i would love to know if anyone out there has already tried
>
> to make 'ceramipapercete ' and what sort of result they had?
>
> (maybe i just haven't tried the right 'search word' !)
>
>
> cheers, eo
>


--
Forrest Charnock


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[papercreters] Ceramicrete MgO [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Charmaine Taylor included below]

HI Eo, I sent you  pics off line...here is Collin's site

 I dug up   and he is also listed on the greenbuildiing site about MGo use

I have a ton of pics of his Bodega Bay Inn work with  burlap dipped slurry and cast walls, panels, firepits etc.

www.biotectures.com      under "services"  is that  slurried  mesh and rebar door.. he uses pigments to give the  rusty/aged look...--- scan thru to see lots of images.

Michael actually sits and sews the burlap sheets together for draping over metal fence posts.   he doesnt answer emails, no phone, hard to reach usually  somneone set up tyhe site for him years ago


Here is Kelly Hart's page on it

www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/ceramicrete.htm  >>>  the last pic is Collins slurried burlap dome  right on the beach

Poste

d by:

"eo greensticks" eogreensticks

Hello All,

i keep wondering if anyone has tried substituting a Magnesium Phosphate
cement for the portland in the

papercrete mix? This stuff, marketed as Grancrete or Ceramicrete, is a
chemically bonded ceramic. It was developed by
 
MgO protected the occupants from radiation during the Chernobyll episode.

something to think about?

cheers, eo

--
Charmaine

Charmaine Taylor/Publishing & Elk River Press
PO Box 375 Cutten CA 95534
www.papercrete.com
 

Michel de Montaigne: "The most manifest sign of wisdom is a continual cheerfulness."

 

Socrates: "He is the richest who is content with the least."

 

 
 

Attachment(s) from Charmaine Taylor

1 of 1 Photo(s)

CASTgates.JPG

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[papercreters] ceramipapercrete

Hi, 

interesting yes, potentially groundbreaking.

i am no chemist (dredging ancient memory from 35 years ago jr college chemistry jag!)

and am more a ' teaspoon tester' than scientific analyzer however

i love the way papercrete feels, compared to cement which i do not like the feel of- 

but there are obviously some limitations which need to be overcome.

given climate change and the rainfall patterns seemingly in shift, i think

it better to design for all possible conditions, not rely on choosing a dry zone to build with papercrete.

Also, i live in Tasmania where we get a drought and  a flood and then a fire perhaps

all on the same day-that's the extreme example here-

most days, we just get 4 seasons!

the mystery to me is WHY papercrete ' works'  as i understand that  portland cement does not bind to fibre-

(it has been explained to me , by Charmaine i think, that the portland encases the fibre and that is how it works...)

but the porous nature (or do i mean pervious? not sure...) of portland cement admits water 

which rots the fibre, resulting in a failure of the material in wet conditions.

on the other hand, 

Magnesium Phosphate cement Binds with fibre and additionally will Not admit water.

It is more expensive than portland but the offset is you can use more fibre in the mix which sounds like

Papercrete to me...

as the MgPO4 concrete it a chemically bonded ceramic, it is water and fire proof-

(living in dry schlerophyll forest, fire proof is good!)

also, it is acceptable to soil life 

(i once poured out a bucket of water from washing the portland from my tools

and a number of worms came  writhing to the surface in agony-horrible)

not to mention the CO2  footprint of Portland Cement-virtually a kilo of CO2 per kilo of PC...

MgPO4 concrete absorbs CO2 as it cures altho with papercrete, maybe not as there

is something  about 'carbonation' to get this to happen.

A sculptor called Michael Collins uses MgPO4 concrete- he is on the net-

painting the slurry on cloth to develop emergency shelter- he says dip a piece of paper

in the slurry and it becomes as if encased in ceramic.

it is  worth a trip to the US to try a bag of Grancrete or Ceramicrete-

we can't buy it here!

there are numerous patents and lots of scientific papers on ceramicrete

but it is slow work for me to get the gist of it! I have the general idea, just working out

how to get the right proportions by volume and how to apply realistically to building.

Starting small with sculpture and plant pots.

As soon as i can get the fine ground dead burned MgO ( i have finally found a supplier in Oz-

it wasn't easy) i will begin testing and put up some posts about the results-

but i would love to know if anyone out there has already tried

 to make 'ceramipapercete ' and what sort of result they had?

 (maybe i just haven't tried the right 'search word' !)

cheers, eo

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[papercreters] using lake water

I live near a lake. What are any ideas, pros and cons, of using lake water while mixing papercrete?



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Re: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

Greetings,
Actually, there are examples of papercrete from Texas, only 125 miles
from the gulf coast, where it is hot and humid. The walls are over 12
years old and have never been coated with anything. The recipes used
are in the archives. There is no mold, mildew or destruction of any
sort. The building was never finished, so the hat was never added. A
great test for papercrete.

Bright Blessings,
Garth & Kim Travis
www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
Bedias, Texas

On 1/30/2013 9:26 PM, charlieitaly wrote:
> Thanks Charmaine and Spaceman,
>
> Based on your comments and more research around the Web I've decided to
> not attempt the papercrete siding idea. I knew there was a reason all
> the examples seem to be from the arid Southwest. Ah well,
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Charlie
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:papercreters%40yahoogroups.com>, spaceman wrote:
> >
> > The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
> > good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
> > off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
> > isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
> > the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
> > and the ground?
> >
>
> snip
>
> > Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
> > for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
> > pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
> > prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
> > how it holds up to the weather.
> >
> > spaceman
> >
>
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6068 - Release Date: 01/30/13
>


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Re: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

Hello All,

i keep wondering if anyone has tried substituting a Magnesium Phosphate cement for the portland in the

papercrete mix? This stuff, marketed as Grancrete or Ceramicrete, is a chemically bonded ceramic. It was developed by

Argonne labs to use in sequestering nuclear waste so is waterproof down to 10 microns from memory, fireproof And it bonds

with fibre -seems like it would address papercrete's one flaw ,that of absorbing water.

I doe 't know what it costs in the US where it is commercially available- if too pricey to use in blocks, maybe as a waterproof,

fireproof papercrete render over the standard portland papercrete walls? 

It is not available here in Australia so i have not been able to test it but i think it would be worth a try?

 

It can be made from dead burned Magnesium Oxide ( finely ground) and dry mono Potassium fertilizer (0-52-34)

using 1% borax or boric acid as a retardent as it sets up fast.I  am still looking for a supplier of these materials here (except for the

 borax which is on the supermarket shelf!) The weak point is the second ingredient which is less

abundant than the first and an agricultural fertilizer but i understand chicken manure can supply the

 phosphate with perhaps a boost of the phosphate

content with phosphoric acid (ingred in coca cola!)

Whoever figures out how to effectively retrieve phosphate from feedlots and sewerage gets the prize!

 I read that houses in Russia built with traditional method of animal manure and

 MgO protected the occupants from radiation during the Chernobyll episode.

something to think about?

cheers, eo

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:31 AM, JayH <slurryguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I think Spaceman's recommendations are right on target.

However, I think there is also huge amount of room for experimentation in this area.

As spaceman recommended, trying something on a small scale is the place to start. I would never advise anyone to try a never before attempted (to my knowledge) experiment on large structure without doing some serious experimentation to figure out what makes sense.

That being said, I am confident that some type of Papercrete siding is not only possible, but extremely practical, even in wet environments.

Why do I think this? Fibercement siding, such as Hardiboard has been commercially produced, sold, and used all over the place for many years now. It is a proven product.

Hardiboard is essentially a very mineral rich papercrete. Something like around 10% paper pulp and 90% cement/sand.

The commercial product is manufacured a lot like making paper. They use a long conveyor belt made out of a screen type material, and they pour their wet mix on it, and pass the belt between two rollers above and below, squeezing out a large amount of excess moisture. Then they sandwich a top layer of paper that is impregnated with the color coating and press it into the presqueezed fibercement with a roller that embosses a woodgrain pattern to make it look like wood siding. The conveyor then passes through a long heated tunnel that dries the product.

I don't expect the average papercreter to make their own siding using long conveyor belts and long fossil fuel burning drying tunnels. That would be outside the scope of the typical do-it-yourselfer.

However, I do think that someone should be able to figure out a way to create a similar fibercement product using techniques that are available to nearly everyone.

I envision some type of wooden form that you can pour a heavy papercrete mix into, and then place a top wooden plank on the form and compress the entire sandwich. (Maybe drive a car or truck over it? I don't know if that would work, but maybe?)

It might be easier to think in terms of making fibercement shingles instead of clapboards. Then you might create a glorified tortilla press that could squish out shingles instead of yummy mexican flatbreads. I suspect that it would be necessary to keep brushing the press surfaces with something like used veggie oil after each shingle is removed to prevent the next shingle from sticking. Then again, perhaps not. Perhaps some time of silicone lubricant would be more long lasting.

Figuring out the best percentages of various ingredients to use in the mix would also be important. Would a 20% paper mix work? How about 25%? I don't know.

Is the top layer of impregnated paper really necessary?

If the layer of paper is necessary, what about rolling typical sheets of newspaper through a wallpaper wetting/glueing trough filled with a mixture of old latex paint? Then slap that wet paper on top of the fibercement shingle, and squishing it all together with the tortilla press?

The shingles would need to spend a significant time curing/drying. Perhaps it would make sense to build a solar wood kiln to hold shingles until they can be stacked.

These are some of the ideas I have considered. Anyone is welcome to give them a try and report their results.

I'm convinced that this concept is possible and practical, but there are a multitude of details to be figured out to make it work. The experimentation is not a task for the impatient or someone looking for a quick solution to cover an already existing structure.

I will say, that whoever spends the time to figure out how to DIY a fibercement siding that is waterproof, durable, and reliable, even in wet climates, will have advanced papercrete technology. They will become legendary on a scale with the Mike McCain tow mixer.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>

> The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
> good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
> off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
> isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
> the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
> and the ground?
>
> A good seal like elastomeric has been discussed, but I don't remember
> anyone reporting on the effectiveness of it. Asphalt emulsion and water
> glass have also been discussed. I tried AE on one panel and it seemed to
> work well but that panel disappeared so longevity was not tested.
>
> In your situation I would consider using the papercrete as infill
> between the studs, on the inside. Papercrete absorbs water like a sponge
> and takes a while to dry out, in your area it may never get dried out
> between rains. If it was sandwiched between housewrap and a sealing
> layer then any small leak could make it wet enough to mold.
>
> Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
> for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
> pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
> prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
> how it holds up to the weather.
>
> spaceman
>

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[papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

I think Spaceman's recommendations are right on target.

However, I think there is also huge amount of room for experimentation in this area.

As spaceman recommended, trying something on a small scale is the place to start. I would never advise anyone to try a never before attempted (to my knowledge) experiment on large structure without doing some serious experimentation to figure out what makes sense.


That being said, I am confident that some type of Papercrete siding is not only possible, but extremely practical, even in wet environments.

Why do I think this? Fibercement siding, such as Hardiboard has been commercially produced, sold, and used all over the place for many years now. It is a proven product.

Hardiboard is essentially a very mineral rich papercrete. Something like around 10% paper pulp and 90% cement/sand.

The commercial product is manufacured a lot like making paper. They use a long conveyor belt made out of a screen type material, and they pour their wet mix on it, and pass the belt between two rollers above and below, squeezing out a large amount of excess moisture. Then they sandwich a top layer of paper that is impregnated with the color coating and press it into the presqueezed fibercement with a roller that embosses a woodgrain pattern to make it look like wood siding. The conveyor then passes through a long heated tunnel that dries the product.


I don't expect the average papercreter to make their own siding using long conveyor belts and long fossil fuel burning drying tunnels. That would be outside the scope of the typical do-it-yourselfer.

However, I do think that someone should be able to figure out a way to create a similar fibercement product using techniques that are available to nearly everyone.

I envision some type of wooden form that you can pour a heavy papercrete mix into, and then place a top wooden plank on the form and compress the entire sandwich. (Maybe drive a car or truck over it? I don't know if that would work, but maybe?)

It might be easier to think in terms of making fibercement shingles instead of clapboards. Then you might create a glorified tortilla press that could squish out shingles instead of yummy mexican flatbreads. I suspect that it would be necessary to keep brushing the press surfaces with something like used veggie oil after each shingle is removed to prevent the next shingle from sticking. Then again, perhaps not. Perhaps some time of silicone lubricant would be more long lasting.

Figuring out the best percentages of various ingredients to use in the mix would also be important. Would a 20% paper mix work? How about 25%? I don't know.

Is the top layer of impregnated paper really necessary?

If the layer of paper is necessary, what about rolling typical sheets of newspaper through a wallpaper wetting/glueing trough filled with a mixture of old latex paint? Then slap that wet paper on top of the fibercement shingle, and squishing it all together with the tortilla press?

The shingles would need to spend a significant time curing/drying. Perhaps it would make sense to build a solar wood kiln to hold shingles until they can be stacked.

These are some of the ideas I have considered. Anyone is welcome to give them a try and report their results.

I'm convinced that this concept is possible and practical, but there are a multitude of details to be figured out to make it work. The experimentation is not a task for the impatient or someone looking for a quick solution to cover an already existing structure.

I will say, that whoever spends the time to figure out how to DIY a fibercement siding that is waterproof, durable, and reliable, even in wet climates, will have advanced papercrete technology. They will become legendary on a scale with the Mike McCain tow mixer.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>
> The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
> good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
> off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
> isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
> the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
> and the ground?
>
> A good seal like elastomeric has been discussed, but I don't remember
> anyone reporting on the effectiveness of it. Asphalt emulsion and water
> glass have also been discussed. I tried AE on one panel and it seemed to
> work well but that panel disappeared so longevity was not tested.
>
> In your situation I would consider using the papercrete as infill
> between the studs, on the inside. Papercrete absorbs water like a sponge
> and takes a while to dry out, in your area it may never get dried out
> between rains. If it was sandwiched between housewrap and a sealing
> layer then any small leak could make it wet enough to mold.
>
> Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
> for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
> pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
> prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
> how it holds up to the weather.
>
> spaceman
>




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Re: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

Hi Charlie,

Even though the prognosis for an exterior application may be bleak due to the size and climate there is another possibility for you to get the benefits of papercrete.  If you are redoing the interior of this structure, papercrete can be sprayed.  If you remove the interior wall covering and open the wall cavity, you could spray it full of PC and it would increase insulation, strength, and sound deadening.  Papercrete has generally shown to have 3 to 3.5 R value per inch and a compressive strength of around 300 pounds per square inch.  If the siding won't work you could still use PC to strengthen the walls, create a solid impervious layer and re-apply the interior wall.  You would have to come up with an alternative for the exterior. 

If you aren't going to redo the interior then this suggestion is moot.

Ron 

---

From: charlieitaly <charlie@signaldesign.net>
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:26 PM
Subject: [papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

 

Thanks Charmaine and Spaceman,

Based on your comments and more research around the Web I've decided to not attempt the papercrete siding idea. I knew there was a reason all the examples seem to be from the arid Southwest. Ah well,

Thanks for your time,

Charlie

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>
> The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
> good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
> off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
> isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
> the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
> and the ground?
>

snip

> Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
> for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
> pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
> prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
> how it holds up to the weather.
>
> spaceman
>

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[papercreters] Re: Papercrete siding?

Thanks Charmaine and Spaceman,

Based on your comments and more research around the Web I've decided to not attempt the papercrete siding idea. I knew there was a reason all the examples seem to be from the arid Southwest. Ah well,

Thanks for your time,

Charlie

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>
> The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
> good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
> off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
> isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
> the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
> and the ground?
>

snip

> Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
> for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
> pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
> prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
> how it holds up to the weather.
>
> spaceman
>




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Re: [papercreters] Papercrete siding?

The conventional wisdom for papercrete structures in a high rain area is
good boots and a hat, meaning a foundation that raises the papercrete
off the ground and a nice wide overhang. A 1' overhang on a 24' wall
isn't going to give any protection from blowing rain. You didn't mention
the foundation. Is it slab on grade or is there space between the walls
and the ground?

A good seal like elastomeric has been discussed, but I don't remember
anyone reporting on the effectiveness of it. Asphalt emulsion and water
glass have also been discussed. I tried AE on one panel and it seemed to
work well but that panel disappeared so longevity was not tested.

In your situation I would consider using the papercrete as infill
between the studs, on the inside. Papercrete absorbs water like a sponge
and takes a while to dry out, in your area it may never get dried out
between rains. If it was sandwiched between housewrap and a sealing
layer then any small leak could make it wet enough to mold.

Once in a while we hear from someone in a wet place, like Puerto Rico
for instance. I don't think any of them have reported back saying that
pc was successful in a rain forest. In your case I think it would be
prudent to make a small papercrete project like a storage shed and see
how it holds up to the weather.

spaceman

On 1/29/2013 12:58 PM, charlieitaly wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I just recently found out about papercrete and it sounds like it might be something I want to use for a project. I searched the archives looking for info on using papercrete for siding but didn't come up with much.
>
> Here's my situation: I own a 1960's church that my wife and I are turning into a community center. It needs a lot of work.
>
> The walls are 2x4 framing with no insulation, 1/2" plywood sheathing, tar paper, and cedar shingles that were installed incorrectly and should have been replaced 10 years ago. The walls are 24' high with 1' roof overhangs. The location is Eugene, Oregon. It rains a lot here and the walls get lots of sun and rain.
>
> Can I use papercrete for siding?
>
> Here's my thinking: strip the shingles, add house wrap, build 4'x8'x3.5" panels of papercrete. Screw them to the walls. Papercrete the seams. Paint with . . . what?
>
> Will this work?
>
> I appreciate any comments or suggestions.
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Charlie Magee
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6056 - Release Date: 01/25/13
>
>



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[papercreters] Papercrete siding?

Hello Everyone,

I just recently found out about papercrete and it sounds like it might be something I want to use for a project. I searched the archives looking for info on using papercrete for siding but didn't come up with much.

Here's my situation: I own a 1960's church that my wife and I are turning into a community center. It needs a lot of work.

The walls are 2x4 framing with no insulation, 1/2" plywood sheathing, tar paper, and cedar shingles that were installed incorrectly and should have been replaced 10 years ago. The walls are 24' high with 1' roof overhangs. The location is Eugene, Oregon. It rains a lot here and the walls get lots of sun and rain.

Can I use papercrete for siding?

Here's my thinking: strip the shingles, add house wrap, build 4'x8'x3.5" panels of papercrete. Screw them to the walls. Papercrete the seams. Paint with . . . what?

Will this work?

I appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Thanks much,

Charlie Magee



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Re: [papercreters] paper hi

Calle's account has been hacked! Don't follow that link, it wasn't from her and it is not a nice place!!!

On 1/28/2013 9:35 PM, calle vallede wrote:

almost cannot believe it..what do you think http:/ calle

No virus found in this message.
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[papercreters] My email has been hacked

Do not open anything Changing password now Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

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[papercreters] paper hi

almost cannot believe it..what do you think http://bit.ly/116RlOx calle

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[papercreters] New Here

Hi
Im just learning about papercrete. How do you build a foundation to start ? More questions later lol
Devo



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[papercreters] Re: Vault building--free PDF for construction

I'm still a long way from building anything that would require code approval, but I do know some architects I can consult when the time comes.

Thanks!

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>
> As far as I know, ferrocement is not in any building codes, so it
> probably would not make a difference to an inspector unless you could
> convince him that it is the same as "normal" reinforced concrete, and
> then he would probably want to see an engineer's calculations. Rule of
> thumb with code enforcers is that if it isn't in the book, they won't
> approve it without an engineer's stamp, shifting liability to the
> engineer. Any design that is a deviation from standard practices would
> fall under this rule.
>
> spaceman
>
> On 1/17/2013 7:26 PM, trendawareness wrote:
> > Another question I had for those more knowledgeable on building codes is whether or not a vault that used a load-bearing ferrocrete frame might get approved in jurisdictions where a pure papercrete structure wouldn't (yet).
>




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[papercreters] Re: Vault building--free PDF for construction

As I live in a suburbs, I was thinking along the lines of a free-standing tool shed or something like that which doesn't require a permit. To that end, I don't think a domed structure would be as practical as a vault or an extruded arch.

Thanks



--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "liberty1_27606" wrote:
>
>
>
> Trend,
>
> I like your suggestion of caternary arches. I believe catenaries give us the the best balance of forces.
>
> Are you looking at circular arches (domes) or extruded arches?
>
> Please keep us informed with what you find and test.
>
> Bobby
>
>



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[papercreters] Re: I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters

Spaceman,

You are correct. It is 57 pounds per cubic foot.

Thanks for the correction.

Bobby

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, spaceman wrote:
>
> That was 1,546# for a cubic yard, not a cubic foot! That's more like 57#
> per cubic foot.
>
> Domes are aerodynamic and wind flows around and over them so the wind
> resistance is low. However, enough wind will move almost anything. When
> I was first assembling the frame for my big dome, the frame was sitting
> on a slab but not yet bolted to the slab. One night we got high winds
> and in the morning found that the frame (no covering) had moved several
> feet. A few months later when the March winds came around, one morning I
> found my top pent 120' away from the dome, though it was screwed down.
> It had a thin coating of papercrete that turned it into a great airfoil.
> Photos at
> http://starship-enterprises.net/domes/domehouse/march%202002.html a bit
> past 1/2 way down the page. When it was put back in place we gave extra
> care to straps and screws.
>
> Once your dome is secured to the foundation and covered completely then
> you should have no problems. Winds here above 80mph are not rare, and I
> have had no problems with completed domes from the wind. I don't put
> dirt in my papercrete and end up with about 20# per cubic foot final
> weight. I aim for 1 foot thick, I want better than the approximately R18
> you would get with 6" thick papercrete. Secure the dome well and don't
> leave any openings or projections for wind to get a grip and you'll be fine.
>
> spaceman
>
> On 1/19/2013 7:56 PM, liberty1_27606 wrote:
> > With a cubic foot weighing 1546#, if you make the walls 6" thick or more, it should not float away. I think I want to make my walls a foot or more to get enough insulation, so I don't think it is a problem.
> >
> > Bobby
>




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Re: [papercreters] Re: I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters

That was 1,546# for a cubic yard, not a cubic foot! That's more like 57#
per cubic foot.

Domes are aerodynamic and wind flows around and over them so the wind
resistance is low. However, enough wind will move almost anything. When
I was first assembling the frame for my big dome, the frame was sitting
on a slab but not yet bolted to the slab. One night we got high winds
and in the morning found that the frame (no covering) had moved several
feet. A few months later when the March winds came around, one morning I
found my top pent 120' away from the dome, though it was screwed down.
It had a thin coating of papercrete that turned it into a great airfoil.
Photos at
http://starship-enterprises.net/domes/domehouse/march%202002.html a bit
past 1/2 way down the page. When it was put back in place we gave extra
care to straps and screws.

Once your dome is secured to the foundation and covered completely then
you should have no problems. Winds here above 80mph are not rare, and I
have had no problems with completed domes from the wind. I don't put
dirt in my papercrete and end up with about 20# per cubic foot final
weight. I aim for 1 foot thick, I want better than the approximately R18
you would get with 6" thick papercrete. Secure the dome well and don't
leave any openings or projections for wind to get a grip and you'll be fine.

spaceman

On 1/19/2013 7:56 PM, liberty1_27606 wrote:
> With a cubic foot weighing 1546#, if you make the walls 6" thick or more, it should not float away. I think I want to make my walls a foot or more to get enough insulation, so I don't think it is a problem.
>
> Bobby



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Re: [papercreters] Re: I had a dream ... but help need help off established papercreters

Never mind the mix.it is outdated.look at the vaults and domes. I am no longer there.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:21 PM, "liberty1_27606" <liberty1@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I found a MSDS that listed silica sand at 110# per cu. ft., so the estimate is safe.

Bobby

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "liberty1_27606" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
> You were concerned about a dome floating away in the breeze. I think not - papercrete is lighter than conventional masonry, but, if you include sand or dirt or clay, it will still be fairly heavy.
>
> Clyde suggested you look at Eve's garden. They document their mix at:
>
> http://www.evesgarden.org/the-bed-and-breakfast/architecture/
>
> Their formula is:
>
> For one cubic yard mix:
>
> 2 cubic feet of Portland cement
>
> 2/3 cubic foot of metakaolin pozzolan
>
> 12 cubic feet of perlite or plaster sand
>
> 125 pounds of recycled paper
>
>
>
> Estimating weights in the formula:
>
> 2 x 94#/cubic foot = 188#
>
> 2/3 x 50#/cubic foot = 33# SWAG
>
> 12 x 100#/cubic foot = 1200# SWAG
>
> 125# 125#
>
> Total 1546#
>
> Notice that the water was not included, since we assume that it all evaporates. There is a complicated reaction between the cement, the water, and the air. We need to measure this to get the real weight. But the sand makes up so much of the weight, if we get it right, we have a good estimate.
>
> (If anyone has the real weight for either pozzolan or sand, please speak up.)
>
> With a cubic foot weighing 1546#, if you make the walls 6" thick or more, it should not float away. I think I want to make my walls a foot or more to get enough insulation, so I don't think it is a problem.
>
> Bobby
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "andytulip40" wrote:
> >
> > Hi joined the group today having googled my way through information on papercreting.
> >
> > I am looking at utilising my domestic waste output (as a new years resolution) I live in the UK and want to reduce the number of large recycle bins outside my house. I want to absorb all waste aside from garden and food waste.
> >
> > I intend to make papercrete blocks. However this blocks will be thicker than usual blocks as i want to use cans and bottles (glass and plastic) inside. The cans and bottles will absorb waste such a wrappings, packaging. These will then be earth rammed with ssoil/sand from the garden to provide bulk and strength.
> >
> > The paper and cardboard will then be used to from a papercrete shell aroung the plastic bottles/metal cans. The advantages of this method are that it will
> >
> > a)utilise all of my non organic doemestic waste (more recycled than paper
> > b) offset the amount of papercrete needed and therefore cement required
> >
> > I have several questions which i hope some of you guys may be able to help me with
> >
> > 1) I intend to build a standard block What is the minium thickness i could get away with for strength.
> > The standard concrete block in UK is 440mm wide, 210mm high and has a thickness of 100mm. This will absorb all pet botttles, cans, soft drinks/beers cans which take up 60mm allowing 20mm thickness of papercrete. Is 20mm sufficient or will the blocks ned to be thicker than 100mm.
> >
> > 2) having analysed my waste i have more cardboard than paper. Is is possible to have a mix of say 60% cardboard, 40% paper?
> >
> > 3) i have a dedicated wheelie bin for my pulp. Is it best to add water first allowing paper to pulp over time and absorb water or just do the pulping process in one go.
> >
> > 4) It is the middle of winter now. How long will it take for blocks to dry inside a cold non heated garage. I intend to start building in March when I have a supply of blocks, weather and daylight on my side, will 2 months drying be sufficient?
> >
> > 5) I want a uniformed block with straight edges on all sides. looking at pictures of blocks from molds they look a bit wavy. has any of you guys tried cutting papercrete? I would prefer a benchsaw, not handheld as i want a perfect straight cut. Can anyone recommend an appropriate one.
> >
> > 6) The finish, ideally a smooth tidy finish as this will be on show. When molding the blocks is is wise to apply a primer, of some sort to the finished side so that it comes out of the mold smooth.
> >
> >
> > Apologies for my many questions, but i am taking this project quite seriously. In return if any of you guys needs help or advice in reccling tyres and building with earth rammed tyres i could be you man. i have worked with tyres since 2009 and dug an underground earthship in my garden. Tyres are a great building tool if you have space but are simply too big and rounded to create a finsish without lots of rendering. It is also very labour intensive ramming a tyre properly.
> > I got into papercrete from this perspective and can offer lots of advice. Alas my mrs (not a big fan of recycling has banned me from tyres, so I have had to come up with something else.
> >
> > I appreciate anyones input on my questions as it will hopefully save me many weeks in experimenting.
> >
>

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