Thursday, September 29, 2011

[papercreters] Re: Asphalt Emulsion Mix Ratios -- and Other Interesting Stabilizers

Do note that the tried and proven mixes above apply to adobe making. Quentin uses a very similar asphalt emulsion ratio when working with "fidobe" -- which is much closer to clay-soil-based papercrete. (It's an adobe that includes a generous amount of paper fiber in its mix. Makes a lighter and more insulating brick.)

You WILL need to experiment with the mix ratios to find what works well with your soil type and ingredients.

Would LOVE to hear from others who have experimented with papercrete and asphalt emulsion about what proportions worked best for you.

-- ken winston caine

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[papercreters] Print good infoAsphalt Emulsion Mix Ratios -- and Other Interesting Stabilizers



Well God came through.  If you have questions write and I.will post for feedback.

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless


-----Original message-----
From: ken winston caine <kwc@mindbodyspiritjournal.com>
To:
papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Thu, Sep 29, 2011 04:13:45 GMT+00:00
Subject:
[papercreters] Asphalt Emulsion Mix Ratios -- and Other Interesting Stabilizers

 

Have been meaning to dig into my notes and share this with you for about a week but have been too busy with my project to stop and hunt this info up.

Here is some information I gathered from reliable, experienced sources regarding using asphalt emulsion in soil -- and in soil and paper fiber -- mixes. It mostly comes the experience of those making adobes -- which are more dense than papercrete.

Am also including some info, deeper in, on cactus juice and cow manure and some other stabilizers that help with adhesion and water resistance.

First a few notes on the amount of asphalt emulsion to use. You can experiment, using this info as a guide, to find your best mix:

1.

Bitumen

(kwcnote: Bitumen means asphalt.)

Bitumen is added in the form of an emulsion that is in suspension in water or another liquid medium. On drying the bitumen forms a thin film which coats the soil particles. The main effect of adding bitumen is to improve cohesion and water resistance. However, if it is added
in excess the compressive strength can be reduced.

Normally the quantity of bitumen to be added (excluding the solvent or water) is 2 to 3% for a cutback (solvent-based), or in the following proportions for an emulsion:
- 4 to 6% for a soil with a high sand content;
- 7 to 12% for low sand content soils;
- 13 to 20% for clayey soils.

The bitumen needs to be mixed with a small quantity of soil before mixing it with the remainder; the mixing needs not to be excessive to avoid breaking down the emulsion and making stabilization less effective.
-- http://sheltercentre.org/sites/default/files/PA_AdditivesClayMineralsSynthetic.pdf

2.

This is the mix Quentin Wilson uses in Adobe brick making:

"Adobe with about 4% asphalt is quite waterproof. In the USA the asphalt is quite emulsified through chemical magic and mixes easily with water. ...Do not put on an exterior sealant. Many types of sealants have been tried and if they do not breathe, any moisture that gets into the adobe cannot get out and breaks the bond of the sealant at the surface of the adobe. Asphalt will do the job."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm

"..."I would stick with the asphalt emulsion stabilizer. The amount I favor is about 12 to 16 ounces per wheelbarrow. That's about a 3- to 4-cubic foot load in the wheelbarrow. Actually, I mix in a mixer but after several loads counting shovelsfull, I can judge how much is in the mixer before I pour it into the wheelbarrow. At that low rate of asphalt, the mixture is still moisture vapor permeable. It has held up well on the exterior of the church here in El Rito with some touch up over the past 20 years.

"I have used Elmer's Glue but only on interior walls and then only when the soil was very sandy. Most good adobe mixes work on the interior without metal netting or any admixture. I would not use both stabilizers in the same mix. I get emulsified asphalt from Elf Asphalt which I think is nationwide. They supply to the highway and driveway repair industries. They may have quirky requirements in the amounts they will sell and into what kind of containers they will deal with. There might be other asphalt suppliers in your area."
-- ibid

-- "I find that 8 to 16 liquid ounces is about right to stabilize a cubic foot of my soil's adobe mud. That is about 1/2 to 1% by weight. It is not fully stabilized but will give enough protection to preserve the adobe for my lifetime. Another way to add is to put 5 gallons of emulsion into a 55-gallon drum and fill it the rest of the way with water. That way the water has 10% asphalt. It is a little nicer to work with than full strength emulsion."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm

3.

On the use of various stabilizers for strength and water resistance:

Q: Can you give me an idea of the percentage of material to adobe I should begin with?

A: Emulsified Asphalt: 1 to 5%; Cement: 3 to 7%; Lime: 2 to 9%; Fish oil emulsion: 1 to 3%; Carpenters glue: 1/2 to 2%; Resina or latex/acrylic: 1/2 to 4%. Every soil is different in its clay/silt/sand ratios so it just takes fooling around. I can usually tell when the mud just begins to feel a bit more sticky. As soon as it will not slide easily off a trowel or shovel, it is too much. If it sticks to a trowel or shovel to begin with before any admixture, then there is too much clay and the bricks will probably crack. Then the soil needs more sand. There are whole books written about this such as the UN Handbook: "Soil-Cement, its use in building". See this page. Have fun."
-- ibid

4.

On prickly pear cactus goo:

"...If you have prickly pear cactus around they can be chopped up in a fifty-five gallon drum and left to percolate a bit. After a while a green sticky goo is produced that can be lifted out and added to mud to make a fairly waterproof plaster."

"..."I would say that you might cut up purple and green cactus and put them in separate five-gallon buckets and cover them with water. After a week or ten days they should ferment and if you keep stirring daily it should turn into a gelatinous mess. Then you lift out the mess with some fork-like device and leave behind the spines. The gelatinous mess can then be used to make plaster and I think around a pint per wheelbarrow is a ratio for starting. Maybe a quart. Every soil is different in how it reacts to admixtures.

Then you just have to scientifically monkey around till you find a mixture that can be troweled, does not crack upon drying, and demonstrates an enhanced resistance to water erosion. It will not be perfect, but if you can go from standard soil mixtures which have a one- to three-year life expectancy on a wall to a five-year or greater life, then you have made progress."
-- ibid

5.
Manure

"..."your use of horse manure is perfect. The closer to single fibers, the stronger the bond of straw to adobe. Big, heavy wheat straw is slippery and stiff and does not bond as well. Ancient cultures discovered it is a lot easier to let the horse do the work instead of chopping straw all day. Hassan Fathy thought that if the mud can sit for three days that the microbes present begin to make lactic acid which strengthens the adobe bricks. I am not sure this has ever been verified in a laboratory, but history is the best laboratory."
-- ibid

6.
Manure AND Cactus Juice

"For your water resistant plaster, the higher the clay content, the more resistant the plaster. For some reason, traditional wisdom tells us that cow manure is better for this water resistant plaster mix than horse manure. The Australians say, "the fresher, the better." In Northern Mexico and at Simone Swans in Presidio Texas there is interest in combining a little cow manure with prickly pear type cactus fermented in a drum for a period of time. The gelatinous goo is mixed in with the plaster at about a quart per wheelbarrow."
-- ibid

---
7.

More on asphalt emulsion.

The prices information is completely wrong by now. (This was written, I think, around 2005.) And the company in Albuquerque has a different name now. It's now called:
Wharton Dewwy
500 Tyler Rd NE
Albuquerque, NM 87113
(505) 350-7709

"Q: I was wondering how much asphalt emulsion is needed as a ratio to make mud cement and how much does a 50 gallon can of asphalt emulsion cost ..

"A: Each soil will react differently to asphalt emulsion so in New Mexico the definition of a stabilized adobe is a functional definition. That is, an adobe placed on a porous, water saturated surface for seven days may absorb no mare than four percent moisture by weight. Adobe producers will tell people that they use 2 to10 percent asphalt emulsion but do not mention if that is measured by volume or weight. I find that 8 to 16 liquid ounces is about right to stabilize a cubic foot of my soil's adobe mud. That is about 1/2 to 1% by weight. It is not fully stabilized but will give enough protection to preserve the adobe for my lifetime. Another way to add is to put 5 gallons of emulsion into a 55-gallon drum and fill it the rest of the way with water. That way the water has 10% asphalt. It is a little nicer to work with than full strength emulsion.

"The cost of 55 gallons of asphalt had been about $75 until the prices of oil products began to go up the last couple of months. My guess is that it is well over $100 by now. A source of emulsified asphalt in New Mexico is Elf Asphalt on North Edith Street in Albuquerque. Their minimum sale is by the 55 gallon container. You have to have your own barrel hopefully one with a removable top. Plan on splashing some asphalt on the cab of your pickup truck as a badge of honor."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm

8.

And, special bonus, some interesting facts about the paper we are using in papercrete:

- One three foot stack of newspapers is equal to one tree, approximately 30 feet tall

- One three foot stack of newspaper weighs 100 pounds.

- To make one ton of virgin paper uses 17 trees (3-2/3 acres of forest)/.

(Sorry, didn't record my source for those three facts.)

Hope this helps,
ken winston caine



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[papercreters] Papercrete fish container.

Hi everyone!
I´m new in this papercrete technik, and I´ve seen you can almost build anything out of this thing.
I wonder about the permeability of this material, and if there is an aditive you can introduce to the mix to do it waterproof, and at the same time to be safe for fish.
Can anyone please tell me something about it?
Thanks in advance!

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011

[papercreters] Asphalt Emulsion Mix Ratios -- and Other Interesting Stabilizers

Have been meaning to dig into my notes and share this with you for about a week but have been too busy with my project to stop and hunt this info up.

Here is some information I gathered from reliable, experienced sources regarding using asphalt emulsion in soil -- and in soil and paper fiber -- mixes. It mostly comes the experience of those making adobes -- which are more dense than papercrete.

Am also including some info, deeper in, on cactus juice and cow manure and some other stabilizers that help with adhesion and water resistance.

First a few notes on the amount of asphalt emulsion to use. You can experiment, using this info as a guide, to find your best mix:

1.

Bitumen

(kwcnote: Bitumen means asphalt.)

Bitumen is added in the form of an emulsion that is in suspension in water or another liquid medium. On drying the bitumen forms a thin film which coats the soil particles. The main effect of adding bitumen is to improve cohesion and water resistance. However, if it is added
in excess the compressive strength can be reduced.

Normally the quantity of bitumen to be added (excluding the solvent or water) is 2 to 3% for a cutback (solvent-based), or in the following proportions for an emulsion:
- 4 to 6% for a soil with a high sand content;
- 7 to 12% for low sand content soils;
- 13 to 20% for clayey soils.

The bitumen needs to be mixed with a small quantity of soil before mixing it with the remainder; the mixing needs not to be excessive to avoid breaking down the emulsion and making stabilization less effective.
-- http://sheltercentre.org/sites/default/files/PA_AdditivesClayMineralsSynthetic.pdf


2.

This is the mix Quentin Wilson uses in Adobe brick making:

"Adobe with about 4% asphalt is quite waterproof. In the USA the asphalt is quite emulsified through chemical magic and mixes easily with water. ...Do not put on an exterior sealant. Many types of sealants have been tried and if they do not breathe, any moisture that gets into the adobe cannot get out and breaks the bond of the sealant at the surface of the adobe. Asphalt will do the job."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm

"..."I would stick with the asphalt emulsion stabilizer. The amount I favor is about 12 to 16 ounces per wheelbarrow. That's about a 3- to 4-cubic foot load in the wheelbarrow. Actually, I mix in a mixer but after several loads counting shovelsfull, I can judge how much is in the mixer before I pour it into the wheelbarrow. At that low rate of asphalt, the mixture is still moisture vapor permeable. It has held up well on the exterior of the church here in El Rito with some touch up over the past 20 years.

"I have used Elmer's Glue but only on interior walls and then only when the soil was very sandy. Most good adobe mixes work on the interior without metal netting or any admixture. I would not use both stabilizers in the same mix. I get emulsified asphalt from Elf Asphalt which I think is nationwide. They supply to the highway and driveway repair industries. They may have quirky requirements in the amounts they will sell and into what kind of containers they will deal with. There might be other asphalt suppliers in your area."
-- ibid

-- "I find that 8 to 16 liquid ounces is about right to stabilize a cubic foot of my soil's adobe mud. That is about 1/2 to 1% by weight. It is not fully stabilized but will give enough protection to preserve the adobe for my lifetime. Another way to add is to put 5 gallons of emulsion into a 55-gallon drum and fill it the rest of the way with water. That way the water has 10% asphalt. It is a little nicer to work with than full strength emulsion."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm

3.

On the use of various stabilizers for strength and water resistance:

Q: Can you give me an idea of the percentage of material to adobe I should begin with?

A: Emulsified Asphalt: 1 to 5%; Cement: 3 to 7%; Lime: 2 to 9%; Fish oil emulsion: 1 to 3%; Carpenters glue: 1/2 to 2%; Resina or latex/acrylic: 1/2 to 4%. Every soil is different in its clay/silt/sand ratios so it just takes fooling around. I can usually tell when the mud just begins to feel a bit more sticky. As soon as it will not slide easily off a trowel or shovel, it is too much. If it sticks to a trowel or shovel to begin with before any admixture, then there is too much clay and the bricks will probably crack. Then the soil needs more sand. There are whole books written about this such as the UN Handbook: "Soil-Cement, its use in building". See this page. Have fun."
-- ibid

4.

On prickly pear cactus goo:

"...If you have prickly pear cactus around they can be chopped up in a fifty-five gallon drum and left to percolate a bit. After a while a green sticky goo is produced that can be lifted out and added to mud to make a fairly waterproof plaster."

"..."I would say that you might cut up purple and green cactus and put them in separate five-gallon buckets and cover them with water. After a week or ten days they should ferment and if you keep stirring daily it should turn into a gelatinous mess. Then you lift out the mess with some fork-like device and leave behind the spines. The gelatinous mess can then be used to make plaster and I think around a pint per wheelbarrow is a ratio for starting. Maybe a quart. Every soil is different in how it reacts to admixtures.

Then you just have to scientifically monkey around till you find a mixture that can be troweled, does not crack upon drying, and demonstrates an enhanced resistance to water erosion. It will not be perfect, but if you can go from standard soil mixtures which have a one- to three-year life expectancy on a wall to a five-year or greater life, then you have made progress."
-- ibid

5.
Manure

"..."your use of horse manure is perfect. The closer to single fibers, the stronger the bond of straw to adobe. Big, heavy wheat straw is slippery and stiff and does not bond as well. Ancient cultures discovered it is a lot easier to let the horse do the work instead of chopping straw all day. Hassan Fathy thought that if the mud can sit for three days that the microbes present begin to make lactic acid which strengthens the adobe bricks. I am not sure this has ever been verified in a laboratory, but history is the best laboratory."
-- ibid

6.
Manure AND Cactus Juice

"For your water resistant plaster, the higher the clay content, the more resistant the plaster. For some reason, traditional wisdom tells us that cow manure is better for this water resistant plaster mix than horse manure. The Australians say, "the fresher, the better." In Northern Mexico and at Simone Swans in Presidio Texas there is interest in combining a little cow manure with prickly pear type cactus fermented in a drum for a period of time. The gelatinous goo is mixed in with the plaster at about a quart per wheelbarrow."
-- ibid


---
7.

More on asphalt emulsion.

The prices information is completely wrong by now. (This was written, I think, around 2005.) And the company in Albuquerque has a different name now. It's now called:
Wharton Dewwy
500 Tyler Rd NE
Albuquerque, NM 87113
(505) 350-7709

"Q: I was wondering how much asphalt emulsion is needed as a ratio to make mud cement and how much does a 50 gallon can of asphalt emulsion cost ..

"A: Each soil will react differently to asphalt emulsion so in New Mexico the definition of a stabilized adobe is a functional definition. That is, an adobe placed on a porous, water saturated surface for seven days may absorb no mare than four percent moisture by weight. Adobe producers will tell people that they use 2 to10 percent asphalt emulsion but do not mention if that is measured by volume or weight. I find that 8 to 16 liquid ounces is about right to stabilize a cubic foot of my soil's adobe mud. That is about 1/2 to 1% by weight. It is not fully stabilized but will give enough protection to preserve the adobe for my lifetime. Another way to add is to put 5 gallons of emulsion into a 55-gallon drum and fill it the rest of the way with water. That way the water has 10% asphalt. It is a little nicer to work with than full strength emulsion.

"The cost of 55 gallons of asphalt had been about $75 until the prices of oil products began to go up the last couple of months. My guess is that it is well over $100 by now. A source of emulsified asphalt in New Mexico is Elf Asphalt on North Edith Street in Albuquerque. Their minimum sale is by the 55 gallon container. You have to have your own barrel hopefully one with a removable top. Plan on splashing some asphalt on the cab of your pickup truck as a badge of honor."
-- http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/QandA/adobe/mixes.htm


8.

And, special bonus, some interesting facts about the paper we are using in papercrete:

- One three foot stack of newspapers is equal to one tree, approximately 30 feet tall

- One three foot stack of newspaper weighs 100 pounds.

- To make one ton of virgin paper uses 17 trees (3-2/3 acres of forest)/.

(Sorry, didn't record my source for those three facts.)

Hope this helps,
ken winston caine

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Thursday, September 22, 2011

Re: [papercreters] Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?



I vaguely remember buying a gallon of AE, and pouring part of that gallon - maybe a quart - into a five gallon bucket of wet pc mix. Maybe.

It was probably more than was needed, it made the pc black and it shed water like a duck's back. At around the same time I also tried dissolving a tube of silicone caulk in a gallon of turpentine and spraying that onto pc.  That worked great too.

Both of these experimental panels disappeared at some point so there is no way to comment on the longevity.

If you decide to experiment, I'll be interested in the results.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/21/2011 4:24 PM, Donald Miller wrote:
How much emulsion was put in the mix? Do you still remember? I think the idea is very intriguing.

---


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Re: [papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?



http://starship-enterprises.net/files/PC%20panel%20floating.jpg
http://starship-enterprises.net/files/PC%20panel%20floating%20after%20eight%20hours.jpg

Try these direct links. They work from here. What you have listed below look like email attachments but are not links to photos. There is no telling what happened to the original links.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/21/2011 10:34 AM, ken winston caine wrote:
 Still a problem with the path. Here's what it looks like in the source code for photo 1: cid:part1.03000506.00080102@starship-enterprises.net  And here's what it looks like for photo 2: cid:part2.09070209.05050601@starship-enterprises.net  Both of which, of course, call up blank pages.  -- ken    ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3910 - Release Date: 09/21/11   


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Wednesday, September 21, 2011

Re: [papercreters] Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?



How much emulsion was put in the mix? Do you still remember? I think the idea is very intriguing.

--- On Sat, 9/17/11, Spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net> wrote:

From: Spaceman <Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net>
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?
To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 17, 2011, 10:31 AM

 
I did do a test panel that was pc with AE dumped into it while in the liquid state. It worked well. That panel would float and did not absorb any water. It did give off a bit of an oil slick when it was new.

I left that panel sitting outside to see how it would weather, and the sun faded the almost black to a lighter grey, almost "normal" color for pc. At some point a helper probably threw it into a mixer load when we were recycling scrap, and it was never seen again. The last time I saw it there was no visible deterioration from the weather other than the faded color.

floating AE panel

eight hours later
spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/17/2011 10:44 AM, ken winston caine wrote:
Hi Spaceman:  Back in, I think it was 2002, on the other Yahoo group you responded to Charmaine Taylor's postings about using a clay - lime - paper - asphalt emulsion mix.  You were planning to make a couple test bricks.  Did you do that? I never saw the follow-up. (And I don't find it when I search the archives.) I did quite lurking in that group for about the last six years of the last decade so I may have just missed it and be failing to find it now.  I was planning to add a small amount of asphalt emulsion to my mix for increased binding power and water resistance. Do you advise against that?  Best, ken  P.S. I think that discussion centered around trying to figure out the formula for what was once known as Rub-R-Slate. The precise formula apparently died with the substance's greatest promoter.    ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3902 - Release Date: 09/17/11   


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[papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?

Still a problem with the path. Here's what it looks like in the source code for photo 1: cid:part1.03000506.00080102@starship-enterprises.net

And here's what it looks like for photo 2: cid:part2.09070209.05050601@starship-enterprises.net

Both of which, of course, call up blank pages.

-- ken

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011

Re: [papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?



The site was not accessible for several days. The photos should be there now.

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/18/2011 1:43 PM, ken winston caine wrote:
 Spaceman, something seems to be amiss with the path to the two jpegs you attached. The links just call up blank pages for me and the photos don't appear when I view the post on the web.  -- kwc  


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Re: [papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?



My server has been hacked again, and so my access has been limited for a few days.

Let me know when you are coming, hopefully it will overlap when I'm going to be home  : )

spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/18/2011 1:35 PM, ken winston caine wrote:
 Excellent, Spaceman! Thanks.   P.S. I'll PM you later when I know more, but it looks like I'm going to have to spend about four or so days down your way soon. Any chance I could come by and help you with something and get a look at some of your work?     ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3904 - Release Date: 09/18/11   


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Sunday, September 18, 2011

[papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?

Spaceman, something seems to be amiss with the path to the two jpegs you attached. The links just call up blank pages for me and the photos don't appear when I view the post on the web.

-- kwc

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[papercreters] Re: Fresh pictures

Not finding your photos, Sasha. When I click on "last modified" it calls up 90 photo albums. Which is yours? Wasn't obvious to me as I flipped through the descriptions of all 90 albums.

Thanks,
kwc

P.S. BTW, thanks for posting the photos. Looking forward to seeing them once I figure out to find them.

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, "lebarongroup" <lebarongroup@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just posted some pix of Petrified Hessian and Rub-R-Slate experiments on my carport.
>
> Look under last modified in photos.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sasha
>


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[papercreters] Re: Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?

Excellent, Spaceman! Thanks.


P.S. I'll PM you later when I know more, but it looks like I'm going to have to spend about four or so days down your way soon. Any chance I could come by and help you with something and get a look at some of your work?


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[papercreters] Fresh pictures

Hi All,

I just posted some pix of Petrified Hessian and Rub-R-Slate experiments on my carport.

Look under last modified in photos.

Cheers,

Sasha

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Saturday, September 17, 2011

[papercreters] Spaceman's Asphalt Emulsion test results?

Hi Spaceman:

Back in, I think it was 2002, on the other Yahoo group you responded to Charmaine Taylor's postings about using a clay - lime - paper - asphalt emulsion mix.

You were planning to make a couple test bricks.

Did you do that? I never saw the follow-up. (And I don't find it when I search the archives.) I did quite lurking in that group for about the last six years of the last decade so I may have just missed it and be failing to find it now.

I was planning to add a small amount of asphalt emulsion to my mix for increased binding power and water resistance. Do you advise against that?

Best,
ken

P.S. I think that discussion centered around trying to figure out the formula for what was once known as Rub-R-Slate. The precise formula apparently died with the substance's greatest promoter.

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[papercreters] Re: Update on newsprint source

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, JUDITH WILLIAMS <williams_judith@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ken, I didn't know you were in Santa Fe. I virtually built my first project with papers that i got out behind the New Mexican pringint plant on the frontage road. When a reporter wanted to interview me I told him I where I had gotten the paper. He told the guy in charge of the plant who emailed me and told me to stop taking the papers. I went and asked permission and was denied so I just kept getting papers from the bins out back until they put locks on them.
>

Didn't get by there to visit with the press and circulation folks yesterday. Probably Monday. But from your experience, this doesn't seem promising now.

> What are you working on?
>
Trying to get a little lean-to together for winter but everything is taking about five times as long as I expected. Still doing site prep and equipment building and material gathering.

Am going to document my project as I go along on YouTube and a blog.

Intention is to get one pod up before it gets too cold to work with papercrete. This will be a multi-pod project. And, eventually I hope have a beautiful aesthetic and ambiance. But at first, it's going to be a construction zone / work in progress.



>
>
> Years ago I talked to The EL Paso Times about their waste paper. At
> first it was hard to get any information, but after working my way
> through several people I was finally told that all their paper goes
> to a major recycler who transports it to MX. I tried to get more
> information to see if maybe I could get some from that recycler, but
> the person refused to give me any more information. I hope you have
> better success in Santa Fe.
>
Thanks.
>
>A few times I bought several tons from them, and the
> quality varied a lot. It was mostly shredded office paper, but more
> than once I found broken beer bottles and various trash in the
> middle of the bales.
>
I wonder how good that "separating machine" is that Santa Fe County now uses? Bet it leaves a beer bottle or two in at least every ton or two of paper.

> The best bet is a large
> building that houses several offices and has central trash
> collection.
>
Very good tip. Thanks, Spaceman.

I DO have access to huge quantities of cardboard, but my understanding is that cardboard -- besides being honeycombed and taking up lots of space for its weight -- is harder to pulp and presents some other issues, too. Is there a general recommendation against cardboard amongst experienced papercreters?

Best,
ken

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[papercreters] Re: Update on newsprint source

Apple Computers store? Or an orchard and packing plant?

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, General mail account <neurascenic@...> wrote:
>
> An idea if you live by an apple store, their packaging( stuff the consumer does not see) is a very loosley bound recycled paper board. Is pulps very easy. If you are willing to collect it over time this works great.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>

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Friday, September 16, 2011

Re: [papercreters] Update on newsprint source



An idea if you live by an apple store, their packaging( stuff the consumer does not see) is a very loosley bound recycled paper board.  Is pulps very easy.  If you are willing to collect it over time this works great. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2011, at 11:20 AM, "ken winston caine" <kwc@mindbodyspiritjournal.com> wrote:

 

My visit to my nearest Santa Fe County dump transfer station was disappointing.

Indeed, the woman who manages it again welcomed me to take all the newspaper (and other paper) I want, just as she had two years ago when I asked. That part's good.

But here's the bummer. (Bummer for me, at least.)

Santa Fe County has a big machine that can separate mixed recycling waste and now only separates cardboard and glass. Plastic, cans and paper are all thrown into the same recyling bins at the transfer stations.

Used to be there was a large, walk-in storage container for only paper and where people carried and stacked their bags of paper or their bundled bales. That's what I was planning to pull my paper from. It no longer exists.

My next step is to talk to the local newspaper folks about how I can get their bundled/baled rack returns that they send for recycling. I MAY have to pay something for those these days. Will know after I've talked with them. (Today or Monday.)

When I talked to a circulation manager at one regional newspaper regarding this about six years ago, the papers were having to pay to have the bales hauled off to be shipped to paper recycling pulping plants in the U.S. or overseas. So at that time I was welcome to grab them for free so long as I would take at least a full pallet load at a time. (They didn't want me breaking open stretch-wrapped pallets and taking only a portion of its bounty.) I just had to time the grab so that I got there before the paper-pulp broker's freight hauler any time I wanted a bunch. That MIGHT still be the case.

However, the recycled paper business has really taken off, wholesale and retail paper prices have increased by about 50% in the last five years, newspaper circulation and rack sales are way down, newspapers are really hurting for income now, and the whole market and opportunity may have changed. Will report what I learn.

Have a few other ideas for how to get five to 10 tons of bundled newspapers for free or virtually no cost if this doesn't pan out, but nearly all are much more time consuming.

Would love to hear others' experiences in locating reliable free, bulk sources of paper.

Newsprint is my paper of choice, but I'm open to any free bulk source of non-slick paper.

Best,
kwc



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RE: [papercreters] Update on newsprint source



Ken, I didn't know you were in Santa Fe. I virtually built my first project with papers that i got out behind the New Mexican pringint plant on the frontage road. When a reporter wanted to interview me I told him I where I had gotten the paper. He told the guy in charge of the plant who emailed me and told me to stop taking the papers. I went and asked permission and was denied so I just kept getting papers from the bins out back until they put locks on them.

Newsprint is then best and easiest paper to work with. I am now getting papers from local school librarians. Of course this is labor intensive and it's hard to get enough. I'm glad most of the big stuff is done for me now. Please keep us informed about how it's going for you.

What are you working on?



Follow progress on the new project at http://www.papercretebyjudith.com/blog

More papercrete info at http://squidoo.com/papercretebyjudith



To: papercreters@yahoogroups.com
From: Spaceman@starship-enterprises.net
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:41:48 -0600
Subject: Re: [papercreters] Update on newsprint source

 
Years ago I talked to The EL Paso Times about their waste paper. At first it was hard to get any information, but after working my way through several people I was finally told that all their paper goes to a major recycler who transports it to MX. I tried to get more information to see if maybe I could get some from that recycler, but the person refused to give me any more information. I hope you have better success in Santa Fe.

I managed to find "a" major recycler and think it may be the same one the newspaper uses. Though the market for paper was $20 a ton at the time, they agreed to sell me paper for $75 a ton, plus a delivery fee. A few times I bought several tons from them, and the quality varied a lot. It was mostly shredded office paper, but more than once I found broken beer bottles and various trash in the middle of the bales.

I have friends who save all their paper for me and call when they have a stack. Same deal with a couple of offices, and they always shred for security purposes so that is nice. The best bet is a large building that houses several offices and has central trash collection.



spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/16/2011 11:20 AM, ken winston caine wrote:
My visit to my nearest Santa Fe County dump transfer station was disappointing.  Indeed, the woman who manages it again welcomed me to take all the newspaper (and other paper) I want, just as she had two years ago when I asked. That part's good.  But here's the bummer. (Bummer for me, at least.)  Santa Fe County has a big machine that can separate mixed recycling waste and now only separates cardboard and glass. Plastic, cans and paper are all thrown into the same recyling bins at the transfer stations.  Used to be there was a large, walk-in storage container for only paper and where people carried and stacked their bags of paper or their bundled bales. That's what I was planning to pull my paper from. It no longer exists.  My next step is to talk to the local newspaper folks about how I can get their bundled/baled rack returns that they send for recycling. I MAY have to pay something for those these days. Will know after I've talked with them. (Today or Monday.)   When I talked to a circulation manager at one regional newspaper regarding this about six years ago, the papers were having to pay to have the bales hauled off to be shipped to paper recycling pulping plants in the U.S. or overseas. So at that time I was welcome to grab them for free so long as I would take at least a full pallet load at a time. (They didn't want me breaking open stretch-wrapped pallets and taking only a portion of its bounty.) I just had to time the grab so that I got there before the paper-pulp broker's freight hauler any time I wanted a bunch. That MIGHT still be the case.  However, the recycled paper business has really taken off, wholesale and retail paper prices have increased by about 50% in the last five years, newspaper circulation and rack sales are way down, newspapers are really hurting for income now, and the whole market and opportunity may have changed. Will report what I learn.  Have a few other ideas for how to get five to 10 tons of bundled newspapers for free or virtually no cost if this doesn't pan out, but nearly all are much more time consuming.   Would love to hear others' experiences in locating reliable free, bulk sources of paper.  Newsprint is my paper of choice, but I'm open to any free bulk source of non-slick paper.  Best, kwc      ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3900 - Release Date: 09/16/11   



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Re: [papercreters] Update on newsprint source



Years ago I talked to The EL Paso Times about their waste paper. At first it was hard to get any information, but after working my way through several people I was finally told that all their paper goes to a major recycler who transports it to MX. I tried to get more information to see if maybe I could get some from that recycler, but the person refused to give me any more information. I hope you have better success in Santa Fe.

I managed to find "a" major recycler and think it may be the same one the newspaper uses. Though the market for paper was $20 a ton at the time, they agreed to sell me paper for $75 a ton, plus a delivery fee. A few times I bought several tons from them, and the quality varied a lot. It was mostly shredded office paper, but more than once I found broken beer bottles and various trash in the middle of the bales.

I have friends who save all their paper for me and call when they have a stack. Same deal with a couple of offices, and they always shred for security purposes so that is nice. The best bet is a large building that houses several offices and has central trash collection.


spaceman  All opinions expressed or implied are subject to change without notice upon receipt of new information.  

On 9/16/2011 11:20 AM, ken winston caine wrote:
My visit to my nearest Santa Fe County dump transfer station was disappointing.  Indeed, the woman who manages it again welcomed me to take all the newspaper (and other paper) I want, just as she had two years ago when I asked. That part's good.  But here's the bummer. (Bummer for me, at least.)  Santa Fe County has a big machine that can separate mixed recycling waste and now only separates cardboard and glass. Plastic, cans and paper are all thrown into the same recyling bins at the transfer stations.  Used to be there was a large, walk-in storage container for only paper and where people carried and stacked their bags of paper or their bundled bales. That's what I was planning to pull my paper from. It no longer exists.  My next step is to talk to the local newspaper folks about how I can get their bundled/baled rack returns that they send for recycling. I MAY have to pay something for those these days. Will know after I've talked with them. (Today or Monday.)   When I talked to a circulation manager at one regional newspaper regarding this about six years ago, the papers were having to pay to have the bales hauled off to be shipped to paper recycling pulping plants in the U.S. or overseas. So at that time I was welcome to grab them for free so long as I would take at least a full pallet load at a time. (They didn't want me breaking open stretch-wrapped pallets and taking only a portion of its bounty.) I just had to time the grab so that I got there before the paper-pulp broker's freight hauler any time I wanted a bunch. That MIGHT still be the case.  However, the recycled paper business has really taken off, wholesale and retail paper prices have increased by about 50% in the last five years, newspaper circulation and rack sales are way down, newspapers are really hurting for income now, and the whole market and opportunity may have changed. Will report what I learn.  Have a few other ideas for how to get five to 10 tons of bundled newspapers for free or virtually no cost if this doesn't pan out, but nearly all are much more time consuming.   Would love to hear others' experiences in locating reliable free, bulk sources of paper.  Newsprint is my paper of choice, but I'm open to any free bulk source of non-slick paper.  Best, kwc      ------------------------------------  Yahoo! Groups Links  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/  <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional  <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/papercreters/join     (Yahoo! ID required)  <*> To change settings via email:     papercreters-digest@yahoogroups.com      papercreters-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     papercreters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3900 - Release Date: 09/16/11   


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[papercreters] Update on newsprint source

My visit to my nearest Santa Fe County dump transfer station was disappointing.

Indeed, the woman who manages it again welcomed me to take all the newspaper (and other paper) I want, just as she had two years ago when I asked. That part's good.

But here's the bummer. (Bummer for me, at least.)

Santa Fe County has a big machine that can separate mixed recycling waste and now only separates cardboard and glass. Plastic, cans and paper are all thrown into the same recyling bins at the transfer stations.

Used to be there was a large, walk-in storage container for only paper and where people carried and stacked their bags of paper or their bundled bales. That's what I was planning to pull my paper from. It no longer exists.

My next step is to talk to the local newspaper folks about how I can get their bundled/baled rack returns that they send for recycling. I MAY have to pay something for those these days. Will know after I've talked with them. (Today or Monday.)

When I talked to a circulation manager at one regional newspaper regarding this about six years ago, the papers were having to pay to have the bales hauled off to be shipped to paper recycling pulping plants in the U.S. or overseas. So at that time I was welcome to grab them for free so long as I would take at least a full pallet load at a time. (They didn't want me breaking open stretch-wrapped pallets and taking only a portion of its bounty.) I just had to time the grab so that I got there before the paper-pulp broker's freight hauler any time I wanted a bunch. That MIGHT still be the case.

However, the recycled paper business has really taken off, wholesale and retail paper prices have increased by about 50% in the last five years, newspaper circulation and rack sales are way down, newspapers are really hurting for income now, and the whole market and opportunity may have changed. Will report what I learn.

Have a few other ideas for how to get five to 10 tons of bundled newspapers for free or virtually no cost if this doesn't pan out, but nearly all are much more time consuming.

Would love to hear others' experiences in locating reliable free, bulk sources of paper.

Newsprint is my paper of choice, but I'm open to any free bulk source of non-slick paper.

Best,
kwc

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Monday, September 12, 2011

[papercreters] Graduation project finished

Hello again.
I would just like to inform you that my graduation project is finished so is the research. It was a really nice experience working with papercrete and I am confident that it has great potential as a construction material. Unfortunately I didnt find any funding to continue the research as a PhD and finally get the building permit (which was my initial goal).
I would like to thank you all for your constant help and support during the project. Your comments and the discussion topics were really helpful.


http://papercrete.wordpress.com/

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Sunday, September 11, 2011

[papercreters] Re: Mixer Design

Now I understand. Thanks, Ron.
-- ken


--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> You are constantly subjecting the whole assembly to water and PC.  If you like things clean then even more water is introduced.  The brakes are unnecessary, so to keep the brakes from seizing up with corrosion or solidified PC it is just easier to remove the shoes.
> Ron
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> -- Ron: Hadn't considered removing the brakes. Why is that important?
>
> Thanks,
> ken
>
> --- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@> wrote:
> >
> > Ken,
> > Be sure to take out the brakes and remove the springs and hanger brackets.  Also just in case it makes a difference, turn the differential around so you are towing it backwards.  Spaceman says it may last longer <snip>
>


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Saturday, September 10, 2011

Re: [papercreters] Re: Mixer Design



Ken,
You are constantly subjecting the whole assembly to water and PC.  If you like things clean then even more water is introduced.  The brakes are unnecessary, so to keep the brakes from seizing up with corrosion or solidified PC it is just easier to remove the shoes.
Ron




-- Ron: Hadn't considered removing the brakes. Why is that important?

Thanks,
ken

--- In papercreters@yahoogroups.com, Ron Richter <ronerichter@...> wrote:
>
> Ken,
> Be sure to take out the brakes and remove the springs and hanger brackets.  Also just in case it makes a difference, turn the differential around so you are towing it backwards.  Spaceman says it may last longer <snip>





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